View Poll Results: Is the left's war on health care doomed?

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Thread: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

  1. #21
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    How much longer are people like you going to continue to milk the nationalist propaganda machine in order to justify lack of present action? I don't give a damn what happened 50+ years ago... it is not relevant to current domestic policy. Fact is, your government could spare that 1% easily while still maintaining a forward domestic momentum; the other fact is, though, that it won't, for the simple fact that the U.S. is a military nation and the welfare of its citizens is low priority.

    Your entire system is setup to cater to the rich elites, and health care is one such aparatus: the pharmaceutical industry with its inflated prices, the insurance companies (and their corrupt, scheming rules), and the lack of public policy to regulate either.



    Your money is already being redistributed... to rich strangers, and not commoners. Everytime you visit a doctor, buy a medication, or use your private insurance, some fat, rich guy is sitting in his leather chair having a hardy laugh at your expense.

    The fact that you can only see ONE angle of the situation - "my money and no one else's" - is obscuring the fact that UHC, if done correctly, would create healthy competition and thus reduce costs for the common people. But no, all you can see is your individualist "mine mine mine" point of view.

    America doesn't deserve UHC. Its people want to remain ill and ripped off.
    A decidedly simplistic and childish view that bears absolutely no relation to reality. Your lack of understanding of the subject is the stuff of legends. You show a definitive shortfall of grasping even basic economics, and couple that with a Pollyannish expectation of government propriety.
    Last edited by Busted; 07-28-09 at 02:54 AM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Busted View Post
    A decidedly simplistic and childish view that bears absolutely no relation to reality. Your lack of understanding of the subject is the stuff of legends. You show a definitive shortfall of even basic economics, coupled with a naive expectation of government services.
    Your statement is ironic considering that it consists entirely of personal attacks, yet you haven't rebutted my individual points whatsoever.

    A child calling another person childish. Quite amusing.

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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    How much longer are people like you going to continue to milk the nationalist propaganda machine in order to justify lack of present action?
    Nationalist propaganda machine? People like me?

    Pray, kind sir, could you clarify both of these statements?

    I don't give a damn what happened 50+ years ago... it is not relevant to current domestic policy.
    A profound statement. Perhaps you should ponder its validity for a moment.

    Fact is, your government could spare that 1% easily while still maintaining a forward domestic momentum; the other fact is, though, that it won't, for the simple fact that the U.S. is a military nation and the welfare of its citizens is low priority.
    1. Five billion dollars annually is hardly enough to support a UHC infrastructure. Obama's plan would cost one trillion...just to start.

    2. America spends roughly ten percent of GDP on welfare programs

    .

    3. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world.

    Your entire system is setup to cater to the rich elites, and health care is one such aparatus: the pharmaceutical industry with its inflated prices, the insurance companies (and their corrupt, scheming rules), and the lack of public policy to regulate either.



    Your money is already being redistributed... to rich strangers, and not commoners. Everytime you visit a doctor, buy a medication, or use your private insurance, some fat, rich guy is sitting in his leather chair having a hardy laugh at your expense.

    The fact that you can only see ONE angle of the situation - "my money and no one else's" - is obscuring the fact that UHC, if done correctly, would create healthy competition and thus reduce costs for the common people. But no, all you can see is your individualist "mine mine mine" point of view.

    America doesn't deserve UHC. Its people want to remain ill and ripped off.
    You're right. All I care about is myself. I've never helped a soul.

  4. #24
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

    Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

    The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

    Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.
    You're kidding me, right? Americans donate more to charity than any other country in the world. Twice as much as the next closest country monetarily. We don't believe in sharing?? Couldn't be further from the truth. We GREATLY believe in sharing and helping the needy - by choice, NOT by force.

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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Nationalist propaganda machine? People like me?

    Pray, kind sir, could you clarify both of these statements?
    You'd essentially rather feel safe by having a pumped up military than sacrifice a miniscule amount of the military budget towards a better life for all Americans rich and poor, all based on major global conflicts from the past. Furthermore, you're implying that rebalancing the budget to include UHC will lead to loss of American foreign power. I highly doubt that.

    America's foreign power is dwindling due to economic reasons, and nations with a healthier, educated population tend to have higher economic output. If millions didn't have to go into foreclosure because of hospital bills, maybe their money would be better spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A profound statement. Perhaps you should ponder its validity for a moment.
    Okay. A child who needs cancer treatment at a cost of $1 million and whose parents do not have coverage should not be entitled to have the costs covered because 50 years ago the USSR tried to spread Communism to the world. Now that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    1. Five billion dollars annually is hardly enough to support a UHC infrastructure. Obama's plan would cost one trillion...just to start.
    The total cost of UHC could be reduced with further refinement, the abolition of medicaid and medicare (since UHC could theoretically cover these), and with a contribution funneled from the military budget. Easy peasy.

    People don't see possibilities because they are too busy crying about how their taxes are going to foot someone else's bill. They look for any excuse to not share, like the idea that their "rights" are being infringed upon by UHC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    2. America spends roughly ten percent of GDP on welfare programs
    Some of which could be combined as part of the UHC bill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    3. America has one of the highest standards of living in the world.
    Among the developed world it has one of the lowest.

  6. #26
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    You're kidding me, right? Americans donate more to charity than any other country in the world. Twice as much as the next closest country monetarily. We don't believe in sharing?? Couldn't be further from the truth. We GREATLY believe in sharing and helping the needy - by choice, NOT by force.
    Your government conducts a lot of foreign aid, but a lot of it is for diplomatic reasons. For example, if America donates x billion dollars to an African nation, it can use that as levrage to instruct it on development. Not that I see anything wrong with this per se, but the notion that money is given out of the goodness of your government's heart is woefully misguided. There is always an agenda.

    If it wanted to make a meaningful impact, it could forgive foreign debt. It doesn't make much sense to donate money to a country where twice or three times as much is already owed. The U.S. uses institutions such as the WTO and the IMF to reduce many borrowing nations to financial slavery. In the year 2000 Royal Jubilee initiated by the Pope, the world's richest nations were asked to forgive foreign debt. Do you know who one of the only countries were to not participate? The U.S.

    Furthermore, we are talking about sharing DOMESTICALLY, not in the foreign realm. If Americans are so charitable then there should be no problem with UHC in principle. I understand many are opposed because of the nature and cost of its introduction, but I would argue an even greater number are opposed by the very virtue of the idea of giving tax dollars towards the medical treatment of another. It's selfishness, plain and simple.

    Early Americans would have had no problem contributing to their community in this manner, but in the consumer/banking era, everyone hordes their pile of money and doesn't want to let a single bit slip by.
    Last edited by Orion; 07-28-09 at 07:22 AM.

  7. #27
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    [QUOTE=Orius;1058158216]As a foreign observer, I believe that the U.S. has proven time and time again that it has the ability to do anything it wants as long as the will is there. Its people are determined dreamers most of the time. But when it comes to sharing, America has a lot to learn.

    To a certain extent, you are, at least, partially correct. When the will is there, we can accomplish anything. We, however, do not have the will to support those who do not wish to support themselves. We do not have the will to provide the mechanism for people to fail. We do not have the will to create a process that will enslave the poor to the government. We do not have the will to create a methodology for redistribution of assets based on lack of contribution to the overall societal good. We do not have a will to create a mechanism that will reward non-performance while penalizing those who are most responsible for the advancement of our society.


    Common trust in the U.S. is not that high. It is higher when compared to the undeveloped world, but when compared to other developed nations, its people do not care as much about one another. The idea that sharing anything = socialism = evil/must kill, is very prevalent in your society and is going to fracture unity in the long term.

    Your premise that the lack of "sharing" constitutes lack of "caring" is nothing more than a rhyme, and carries no logical weight whatsoever. Further, I would suggest that until such time as you consider the level of voluntary sharing, you really have no argument whatsoever.

    The nations that are most successful in the long term, and I mean over the course of 500 years or more, have common trust that is high. People wish each other well, and aren't afraid of pitching in a little extra to help their neighbour, as opposed to the idea that your neighbour is going to suck you dry at the first opportunity.

    I guess that would depend on YOUR definition of "successful", wouldn't it?


    Universal health care will not come to the U.S. because people do not believe in sharing, the common trust (in terms of the idea that MOST people would not abuse UHC if it existed), or extending goals beyond one's self-interest. It is still very much a corporate-driven, individualist, consumer society where community has been put on the backburner.

    Thank you. You finally got it. I find it interesting, however, that you come from a country that exists simply by its good fortune of geography, that lives under the defense umbrella provided by the United States, and whose economy is so inextricably entwined with the US economy, a country whose "social" programs are funded with money saved from providing for their own common defense. Maybe being a leader allows us a clearer picture than that of being a follower ... "if you ain't the lead dog, the scenery is all the same."

  8. #28
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    You'd essentially rather feel safe by having a pumped up military than sacrifice a miniscule amount of the military budget towards a better life for all Americans rich and poor, all based on major global conflicts from the past.
    This is all assuming UHC would help accomplish those ends. Allowing the US government - the paragon of waste, corruption, and inefficiency - to assume control of twenty percent of our economy is pure madness.

    Furthermore, you're implying that rebalancing the budget to include UHC will lead to loss of American foreign power. I highly doubt that.
    I never implied such a thing. I merely pointed out that our military might has been used to defeat the most evil movements in recent history. I find it terribly strange that a person from Canada has so little appreciation for American military prowess.

    America's foreign power is dwindling due to economic reasons, and nations with a healthier, educated population tend to have higher economic output. If millions didn't have to go into foreclosure because of hospital bills, maybe their money would be better spent.
    America's domestic economic issues arise from too much government, period. More government isn't going to solve any of our problems.

    Okay. A child who needs cancer treatment at a cost of $1 million and whose parents do not have coverage should not be entitled to have the costs covered because 50 years ago the USSR tried to spread Communism to the world. Now that makes sense.
    There's this thing, it's called health insurance, not sure if you've heard of it before. It's relatively inexpensive and can finance treatment for a wide array of illnesses and such.

    Also, the Berlin Wall fell in the early nineties. The threat of Communism wasn't some abstract threat from a distant, distant past.

    The total cost of UHC could be reduced with further refinement, the abolition of medicaid and medicare (since UHC could theoretically cover these), and with a contribution funneled from the military budget. Easy peasy.
    Has any country with UHC demonstrated a decrease in costs, ever?

    People don't see possibilities because they are too busy crying about how their taxes are going to foot someone else's bill. They look for any excuse to not share, like the idea that their "rights" are being infringed upon by UHC.
    Yes, we're cry babies. Us people who don't run to the government every time we need or want something. Such whiners...

    I find this distortion of logic disturbing actually. I'm asking to be left alone by people who would take what is rightfully mine and they call ME a whiner!?

    Some of which could be combined as part of the UHC bill.

    Among the developed world it has one of the lowest.
    Then why do wealthy people come to America when they need a specialist or some exotic procedure performed? That's not usually an indication of a crappy health care system.

  9. #29
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Your government conducts a lot of foreign aid, but a lot of it is for diplomatic reasons. For example, if America donates x billion dollars to an African nation, it can use that as levrage to instruct it on development. Not that I see anything wrong with this per se, but the notion that money is given out of the goodness of your government's heart is woefully misguided. There is always an agenda.

    If it wanted to make a meaningful impact, it could forgive foreign debt. It doesn't make much sense to donate money to a country where twice or three times as much is already owed. The U.S. uses institutions such as the WTO and the IMF to reduce many borrowing nations to financial slavery. In the year 2000 Royal Jubilee initiated by the Pope, the world's richest nations were asked to forgive foreign debt. Do you know who one of the only countries were to not participate? The U.S.

    Furthermore, we are talking about sharing DOMESTICALLY, not in the foreign realm. If Americans are so charitable then there should be no problem with UHC in principle. I understand many are opposed because of the nature and cost of its introduction, but I would argue an even greater number are opposed by the very virtue of the idea of giving tax dollars towards the medical treatment of another. It's selfishness, plain and simple.

    Early Americans would have had no problem contributing to their community in this manner, but in the consumer/banking era, everyone hordes their pile of money and doesn't want to let a single bit slip by.
    I'm not talking about the government 'donating' money to foreign nations. I'm talking about American individuals donating to private charities.

    As I said previously, the issue is with forcing charity on people (i.e., theft)

  10. #30
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    Re: Democrats admit they are losing the war on health care

    If I remember correctly Bill Gates alone contributes to charities twice as much as the US government does. How is that political?

    It's really funny to hear someone that doesn't live in the US try to talk smack about how Americans are greedy sob's that only care about themselves. If that was true then I wouldn't be against the UHCP. Know why? Because it would mean free medical for me at the expense of others. Sounds like a great idea to a selfish person. It would be wonderful to get Lasik surgery done on my eyes so I didn't have to wear glasses. It would be great to afford a dentist to get my teeth fixed. It would be great to get help with my acid reflux problem. It would be great to beable to afford help to quit smoking. I've tried on my own many a times. I'm one of those that need help with it.

    So why exactly am I against the current UHCP? Because the systems that we already have in place can be sufficent to do what needs to be done if it MUST be done. If fixed and modified a bit instead. Which would cost far less money. It would also, if done properly, not cost anyone their rights. I also believe in EARNING what you get and not making others pay for it. One reason why I don't have a credit card.

    Now tell me who is selfish? The ones that want others to pay for what they want? Or the ones that works their butts off to get what they want and believe in individual freedom?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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