View Poll Results: What's your opinion of Affirmative Action in the college admissions process?

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  • I'm in favor of affirmative action.

    9 13.64%
  • I don't think it should be used for criteria.

    52 78.79%
  • I have no opinion.

    1 1.52%
  • Other (please explain)

    4 6.06%
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Thread: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

  1. #31
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    AA and various diversification techniques do in fact benefit white men. The impoverished, individuals with unique life stories, ECs, etc. are given the go-ahead. To reduce the programs to race and 'racism' is to ignore reality.

    -NC
    So what you're saying is that the programatic philosophy that says "when confronted with the choice between two otherwise equally qualified applicants, choose the one hardest to find in a coal cellar at midnight with the lights out", that the white guys make out best.

    Yeah, sure. That makes perfect sense.

    To someone.

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    AA and various diversification techniques do in fact benefit white men. The impoverished, individuals with unique life stories, ECs, etc. are given the go-ahead. To reduce the programs to race and 'racism' is to ignore reality.

    -NC
    And the lesson the white male who studied hard, got good grades, but had the total misfortune to be born to sober parents with jobs, what does he learn when he can't get into school? How is this process either reasonable or fair?

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    For what it's worth, diversity does enhance the learning process
    It does.

    You mean talking life stories over beers after class makes it easier to learn Kirkoff's Law?

    Castigliano's Theorem makes more sense to the students when there's more substandard students in the class who got in because of racial considerations, not math scores?

    How does the joint analysis of a truss framed bridge become simpler when the skins shades in the room are more like desert-camo than artic snow or coal-tar? Hmmmm?

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    it isn't some vague abstraction created by white liberals to make academia feel good about itself. It does provide for a more interesting and stimulating academic experience.

    -NC
    No. Affirmative Action is a specific racist program implemented by white socialist liberals to assist in destroying their feelings of guilt and to begin the destruction of the class structure as the God Marx proclaimed.

    I had a stimulating and interesting academic experience.

    And out of 200 or so freshmen entrants in the university's aerospace engineering program, all the people who got in on anything less than academic ability dropped out because they were too stupid to handle the courses. They suffered disappointment of failure, we suffered the annoyance of having our class time wasted by diversely stupid people who didn't belong.

    And in the end, the 15% the completed the course requirements graduated because they completed the course requirements, and not one of them had had any need of getting into the program on anything other than their grades and performance.

  4. #34
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Hey NYC, I'm back,
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    The reason I cited those two cases was not to claim that schools currently use point systems, but to highlight how heavily they weighed race in their admission decisions.
    Fair enough, I, like you dislike and disagree with the implementation of over-zealous AA. Diversifying, like anything else can be done poorly and well. You certainly have cited examples of it doing terribly. So I'm with you in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    You're 100% right when you say that the vast majority of schools use holistic systems instead of point systems. My point is that those holistic systems still place a very significant emphasis on race as compared to most other non-academic factors (and many academic factors as well).
    Again here we seem to be on the same page, I do not believe that ethnicity or race should trump academics, only supplement academic info when selecting a candidate for acceptance.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    After Gratz, UM was not permitted to use the point system any longer. However, there was not a drastic shift in the percentage of students who were minorities. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that they simply maneuvered around Gratz by inserting their existing preferences into the framework upheld in Grutter.
    Here we go agreeing again. Again, I don't believe ethnicity should trump academics, only supplement them.

    So it appears as though we hold similar views here, would this be a safe, agreeable conclusion:

    Voluntary diversifying programs are acceptable at private schools so long as race/ethnicity does not trump the academic qualities of the student . It should only be used to promote diversity in instances when there is a high degree of disparity regarding a given ethnic group.

    Sound good?

    SA,
    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    And when the discrimination is based on the color of someone's skin, then it's racist, pure and simple.
    No, it is not. Racism, by definition implies that a given race is superior to another. That assumption is not made here. The logic of AA, in my mind, is simple:
    -Diversity is good
    -Promoting diversity is therefore also good
    -In instances when a borderline candidate is also a member of a disproportionately underrepresented ethnicity, accepting that individual would promote diversity.

    SA, if there were two students with identical scores and GPAs, how would you go about choosing one?

    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    We're discussing institutionalized racism.

    You're in favor of it.
    May I ask what you would do to encourage diversity at a University?

    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    So what you're saying is that the programatic philosophy that says "when confronted with the choice between two otherwise equally qualified applicants, choose the one hardest to find in a coal cellar at midnight with the lights out", that the white guys make out best.
    At Northeastern we just used a dark room, but a coal cellar isn't a bad idea.

    You're making the mistake of only viewing this through the prism of racial minorities at a predominately white school. If a suburban black kid coming form an affluent family with very little interesting life experiences is matched up against a white kid who has lived a rough life, persevered through challenges and has equal scores/GPA, the white kid should get the call. Additionally, in the case of minority-majority schools, the same may be done for various white ethnicities.

    What I'm saying is the issue isn't so...

    Wait for it....

    Black and white.


    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    And the lesson the white male who studied hard, got good grades, but had the total misfortune to be born to sober parents with jobs, what does he learn when he can't get into school? How is this process either reasonable or fair?
    When he can't get into school? You mean when he can't get into A school, correct. If you have a 3.5 GPA and a 1300 SAT, you're going to college. Period. So the question as it is currently worded does not make sense.

    -NC

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    It's a form of discrimination, hence it's wrong.

  6. #36
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by SA
    You mean talking life stories over beers after class makes it easier to learn Kirkoff's Law?

    Castigliano's Theorem makes more sense to the students when there's more substandard students in the class who got in because of racial considerations, not math scores?

    How does the joint analysis of a truss framed bridge become simpler when the skins shades in the room are more like desert-camo than artic snow or coal-tar? Hmmmm?
    No, I mean that having a black person in an African American studies class is helpful. Or that having an Indian in a class about the Indian-Pakistani situation is helpful. Or that having an Iraqi in a class about Islam is helpful. Can you truly not see an instance where having different people in the classroom would help?

    (edited for telephone induced grammar/spelling mistakes)

    -NC
    Last edited by NortheastCynic; 07-25-09 at 08:56 PM.

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    Hey NYC, I'm back,
    Fair enough, I, like you dislike and disagree with the implementation of over-zealous AA. Diversifying, like anything else can be done poorly and well. You certainly have cited examples of it doing terribly. So I'm with you in that regard.

    Again here we seem to be on the same page, I do not believe that ethnicity or race should trump academics, only supplement academic info when selecting a candidate for acceptance.

    Here we go agreeing again. Again, I don't believe ethnicity should trump academics, only supplement them.

    So it appears as though we hold similar views here, would this be a safe, agreeable conclusion:

    Voluntary diversifying programs are acceptable at private schools so long as race/ethnicity does not trump the academic qualities of the student . It should only be used to promote diversity in instances when there is a high degree of disparity regarding a given ethnic group.

    Sound good?
    Absolutely.

    Thanks for the cordial discussion.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Absolutely.

    Thanks for the cordial discussion.
    You as well, that was a pleasure.

    -NC

  9. #39
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    AA and various diversification techniques do in fact benefit white men. The impoverished, individuals with unique life stories, ECs, etc. are given the go-ahead. To reduce the programs to race and 'racism' is to ignore reality.

    -NC
    Only to your latter sentence...To add to the programs to race and 'racism' is to enhance Liberal reality.

    That's what Racist Liberals do, and professional Blacks.
    Last edited by Realist1; 07-25-09 at 09:45 PM.

  10. #40
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Realist1 View Post
    Only to your latter sentence...To reduce the programs to race and 'racism' is to ignore reality.

    That's what Racist Liberals do, and professional Blacks.
    Just out of curiosity, what is a 'professional Black'?

    -NC

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