View Poll Results: What's your opinion of Affirmative Action in the college admissions process?

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  • I'm in favor of affirmative action.

    9 13.64%
  • I don't think it should be used for criteria.

    52 78.79%
  • I have no opinion.

    1 1.52%
  • Other (please explain)

    4 6.06%
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Thread: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

  1. #21
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    The majority of people who benefit from affirmative action getting into colleges are white males.

    The schools have to cut them a lot of slack to keep the colleges 50/50 male female.
    Any evidence to support this claim?

    If all was fair colleges would be about 65% females.
    If it was fair colleges would have women oriented classes like every day cooking, sewing,birthing, child rearing, how to properly please your man and how to properly please your man with another women, Its man's world 101, house cleaning and how to properly open and give you man a beer.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 07-25-09 at 06:50 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  2. #22
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    Hey LA,
    The thing with academic institutions is that it is rare (at least at the undergrad level...the following cannot be said for law schools) for, say a black kid with significantly worse scores or a lower GPA to be admitted over a more qualified white kid nowadays. Typically, two candidates with similar scores are compared to each other, one is Laotian the other is white, the Laotian gets the call because he/she provides the schools with greater diversity. With regard to grad schools, I agree with you, largely.
    What exactly are you basing this on? I'm unaware of many schools that make their AA calculations public.

    Furthermore, from those that have been made public, we can see that undergraduate institutions tend to use race as a more independent and important factor than graduate institutions.

    For what it's worth, diversity does enhance the learning process, it isn't some vague abstraction created by white liberals to make academia feel good about itself. It does provide for a more interesting and stimulating academic experience.
    This is true to a large degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    It's not as if schools are simply randomly some random some black dude to attend classes. As I said to LA, it's simply a matter of qualified students who add to a diverse environment. If you believe that a white student cannot do that, then I'd suggest looking around a college campus. "Diversity" is not simply a matter of race. Socio-economic factors play largely into the equation. So to suggest that only racial minorities benefit from diversification is simply untrue.
    AA and various diversification techniques do in fact benefit white men. The impoverished, individuals with unique life stories, ECs, etc. are given the go-ahead. To reduce the programs to race and 'racism' is to ignore reality.
    Again, I think that this is more wishful thinking than reality.

    Most colleges may well consider socio-economic diversity when making their decisions on who to admit. However, this receives much less weight than a student's race and accordingly results in less of a mismatch between student and school. 50% of black law students end up in the bottom 10% of their class. I would wager that that's not the case for poor law students, law students with unique life stories, etc.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by sazerac View Post
    The majority of people who benefit from affirmative action getting into colleges are white males.

    The schools have to cut them a lot of slack to keep the colleges 50/50 male female. If all was fair colleges would be about 65% females.
    1) Colleges aren't 50/50 male female. 58% of college students are female.

    The Daily Bruin - Gender gap widens as trends show more women earning bachelor?s degrees

    2) The idea that white males are the primary beneficiaries from affirmative action is patently ludicrous. Care to cite anything to support this assertion?
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  4. #24
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Hello NYC,
    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    What exactly are you basing this on? I'm unaware of many schools that make their AA calculations public.
    Based upon my knowledge of NU's system. Additionally, there are several members of my family who have worked in both financial aid and admissions offices in colleges.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    Furthermore, from those that have been made public, we can see that undergraduate institutions tend to use race as a more independent and important factor than graduate institutions.
    We can see that based upon two SCOTUS cases? I can only speak for law schools, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that law schools emphasize socio-economic factors to a greater degree than undergrad institutions, at the very least this is true for the elite 'Top 14'.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    Most colleges may well consider socio-economic diversity when making their decisions on who to admit. However, this receives much less weight than a student's race and accordingly results in less of a mismatch between student and school. 50% of black law students end up in the bottom 10% of their class. I would wager that that's not the case for poor law students, law students with unique life stories, etc.
    Do you have a link to the emboldened?

    -NC

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    Hello NYC,
    Based upon my knowledge of NU's system. Additionally, there are several members of my family who have worked in both financial aid and admissions offices in colleges.
    And I'm arguing that I don't think this is a sufficient sample. The systems made public in Gratz and Grutter indicate that the law school used a more holistic system, while the undergrad used a point system that gave minorities a 20 point boost, as compared to 12 points for getting a 1600 on the SAT.

    We can see that based upon two SCOTUS cases? I can only speak for law schools, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that law schools emphasize socio-economic factors to a greater degree than undergrad institutions, at the very least this is true for the elite 'Top 14'.
    Be that as it may, it doesn't contradict my point, which is that regardless of how much weight schools give to socio-economic factors, it is still less than they give to race.

    Do you have a link to the emboldened?
    It's from the Sander study, p. 61

    Entire study: http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander/Systemic/SA.htm

    Relevant portion: Featured Article - WSJ.com

    [I]n elite law schools, 51.6% of black students had first-year grade point averages in the bottom 10% of their class as opposed to only 5.6% of white students. Nearly identical performance gaps existed at law schools at all levels.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    And I'm arguing that I don't think this is a sufficient sample. The systems made public in Gratz and Grutter indicate that the law school used a more holistic system, while the undergrad used a point system that gave minorities a 20 point boost, as compared to 12 points for getting a 1600 on the SAT.
    Knowing the SOP of admissions and financial aide departments is fairly pertinent, IMO. I will say this, point systems and 'mechanical' systems where X race gets X points are atrocious and I do agree with the SCOTUS in this instance. So we aren't so far away from each other here. I too prefer a 'holistic' (that's a great way of putting it, by the way) method of preferential treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYC
    Be that as it may, it doesn't contradict my point, which is that regardless of how much weight schools give to socio-economic factors, it is still less than they give to race.
    Showing a SCOTUS case where a given practice is effectively outlawed does contradict a point that states that law schools currently used the outlawed policies. You showed an example where a mechanic point system is banned. It then stands to reason that school do not any longer use those systems for fear of legal action.

    -NC

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    Knowing the SOP of admissions and financial aide departments is fairly pertinent, IMO. I will say this, point systems and 'mechanical' systems where X race gets X points are atrocious and I do agree with the SCOTUS in this instance. So we aren't so far away from each other here. I too prefer a 'holistic' (that's a great way of putting it, by the way) method of preferential treatment.

    Showing a SCOTUS case where a given practice is effectively outlawed does contradict a point that states that law schools currently used the outlawed policies. You showed an example where a mechanic point system is banned. It then stands to reason that school do not any longer use those systems for fear of legal action.
    The reason I cited those two cases was not to claim that schools currently use point systems, but to highlight how heavily they weighed race in their admission decisions.

    You're 100% right when you say that the vast majority of schools use holistic systems instead of point systems. My point is that those holistic systems still place a very significant emphasis on race as compared to most other non-academic factors (and many academic factors as well).

    After Gratz, UM was not permitted to use the point system any longer. However, there was not a drastic shift in the percentage of students who were minorities. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that they simply maneuvered around Gratz by inserting their existing preferences into the framework upheld in Grutter.
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    NYC,
    I've gotta head out for a little bit, I'll continue this with you in a bit. Just wanted to let you know so you don't think I'm ignoring you.

    -NC

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    A simple google search shows lots of articles about college admittance favoring males. "Affirmative Action" for males, whether or not it is mandated by the government.

    [ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=9Fq&q=affirmative+action+gender+m ales+college&aq=f&oq=&aqi=]affirmative action gender males college - Google Search[/ame]

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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by NortheastCynic View Post
    The admissions process in college is, by definition, discriminatory.
    And when the discrimination is based on the color of someone's skin, then it's racist, pure and simple.

    So, let's not try to pretend we're discussing something else.

    We're discussing institutionalized racism.

    You're in favor of it.

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