View Poll Results: What's your opinion of Affirmative Action in the college admissions process?

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  • I'm in favor of affirmative action.

    9 13.64%
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    52 78.79%
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Thread: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

  1. #111
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually you can have it both ways. You can promote regular school. Get kids that are statistically more prone to gang life or being dropouts interested in school again. That right there is half the battle.

    We once promoted schooling before and had great success during the Apollo programs. I see no reason why we can't again. Fix the school system would help also.
    Great idea, I haven't though of that. I am just unsure if that goal is possible in real life America though...

    I have no idea (and i am unsure if anyone else does) have any way of making school seem more appealing to those that don't respect education.

    hmmm... if anyone has any suggestions how this can be done (as another tactic instead of AA) I would be very interested to hear that.

    I suppose if you could accomplish that it would make schools more diverse, but the only way that is assured to make noticible results in diversity is with AA.

  2. #112
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    Great idea, I haven't though of that. I am just unsure if that goal is possible in real life America though...

    I have no idea (and i am unsure if anyone else does) have any way of making school seem more appealing to those that don't respect education.

    hmmm... if anyone has any suggestions how this can be done (as another tactic instead of AA) I would be very interested to hear that.

    I suppose if you could accomplish that it would make schools more diverse, but the only way that is assured to make noticible results in diversity is with AA.
    It would involve lots of work. But America has done the "impossible" before. I see no reason that it can't be done now.

    I would suggest one way of doing this is getting parents more involved. And showing kids that we actually do care and are not just there for a paycheck. Like I said...a LOT of work.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I can understand poverty. It is often assumed that those that live in poverty are not as smart as those that are rich. Not to mention the rich can often have "connections" which may help a school or company.

    But prejudice? Sorry but don't buy it. At least not completely. I'm not trying to say that there isn't prejudice. Just that it's not near as much of a factor as people keep trying to say. And you have to remember that prejudice comes from both directions. Not just whites.
    That's fine that you don't "buy it," but there is pretty solid evidence out there that indicates that it exists. Look at the study I cited earlier in this thread for an example.

    Yes it is a terrible one. For the simple fact that it creates more racism. I've talked to a few whites that turned racist because they were denied one too many jobs just because someone of color was hired, even though they had better resume's than the person of color.
    A lot more people think they didn't get a job because of a minority than those who actually don't get jobs because of minorities. It's an easy way to blame someone else for your own failures.

    Basing it off of class can be just as detrimental as it can cause hard feelings between the poor and the rich. And I think that there is enough hard feelings between those two right now without having to add more too it.
    But "rich" and "poor" are not as readily observable and susceptible to prejudice.

    Why exactly do they feel more comfortable? Do you know?
    Lots of reasons, such as the fact that they have a shared background, they are more likely to understand their issues, etc.. I don't think I'm being particularly controversial here in saying this.

    AA does. Or at least the way people use AA. If a black person applies for a school or company that happens to be totally white what happens if they are denied? A charge of racism. Even if their race had absolutely nothing to do with the reason for them being denied a position. That costs the company or school money. Even if they are found innocent it still costs them money. Name me one school or company that doesn't mind loosing money for no real reason.
    So you oppose the policy because it can lead to frivolous lawsuits? Why not just limit the frivolous lawsuits (which is how it works in practice)?

    Yes, and no. Yes because AA is a government law.
    What government law?

    Says who? Each and everyone of those people can have very different lives. Different perspectives. Different thoughts. You are trying to make it sound as if they would all have the same perspective. They wouldn't. Unless you are trying to say that just because your black you will have a different perspective than someone that is white.

    If that is the case then lets examine this scenario. Got two people. One white. One black. They both grow up in the same neighborhood. Same schooling giving by not only schools but also from parents. Parents make same amount of money. They both have reletively the same experiances and same opportunities.

    How does race play a factor here?
    If you don't think that those two people would still have different perspectives on a lot of things, I don't know what to say.

    And this is a perfect example of why I think we should move away from a strictly race-based system and toward a holistic one that looks at class as well.

    Furthermore, while it's of course possible that the white conservative guys from Greenwich will have radically different perspectives, it's likely that the difference will be smaller than it would be with a black liberal chick from Bed Stuy.

    Again yes somebody does. Look above to the appropriate paragraph where I already explained this.
    You didn't explain anything. It's a fact that private schools are not required by the government to use affirmative action. They do so by choice.

    And people do learn early. It's kind of hard to not hear about racial issues through out your childhood. Particularly in k-12 grades. The great thing about public school is that it is already diverse because a public school has to accept anyone in their district. And I don't know of a single district that doesn't have diversity in their school system. But we are talking about college admissions. Not grades k-12. By the time they get into college they already have had diverse dealings for much of their lives.
    I'm not trying to be rude, but if you really believe this, then you don't know what you're talking about. There are vast swaths of the country where public schools are 95+% individuals of a particular race. Even in more diverse areas, the schools tend to go by neighborhood, which leads to the same result. Why do you think they had to institute busing in so many areas?

    I knew plenty of people who started college never having had a discussion with a black/hispanic/indian/asian/etc.

    No actually I'm not. The difference here is that one is based on a persons acedemics. The other is based on a persons skin color. They could both have worked just as hard as the other. But due to differing grades one is accepted while the other is not. In the case of the AA student he was accepted because of his skin color. Despite his grades not being as good as the white persons. Despite them both working just as hard as the other. Can you honestly tell me that someone with a 3.5 GPA should be accepted over someone with a 4.0 GPA? Because that is exactly what happens with AA.
    And again, you're assuming that there is absolutely no difference between the two individuals other than their GPA. That's just not the case.

    Without AA the black person would have gotten into a good med school yes. But if his GPA was not up to Harvards standards then why should AA get him into Harvard over someone who had a better GPA? Again even if they worked just as hard (or even harder) as the person with the better GPA.
    Because Harvard wanted him, and they can do whatever the **** they want to do.

    Again, there are more factors than just hard numbers. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want diversity in a group.

    That is the problem with AA. It gets people into positions that they normally would not have gotten. All because of their skin color. It doesn't really matter how often it happens. It does matter that it happens at all.
    If you think this is the only area of life where this happens, I don't know what to say.

    Sorry but I'm going to have to reject this study. They said that they had 500 applications yet sent those applications to 1300 different jobs. Because of this you have no idea how or who they sent those applications to. Did they send all applications to each of the 1300 jobs? You have no idea if they only sent applications to the appropriate job that those particular skills applied to. You have no idea if someone else was already hired for the job by the time said application was sent in. You have no idea if there was a better application sent in. You have no idea if the employer was just waiting to review said application. You have no idea how long they waited before the people doing this study waited before they decided that the employer wasn't going to call.

    In essence there are too many variables to accurately tell if this study is accurate or not. Now if you had the original study then we might beable to decern some of the answers.
    You can feel free to disagree with it, but nothing that you've said here is an actual refutation of the methodology of the study or its results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, my ancestors weren't whiny, and yes, the irish were denied jobs in America merely because they were Irish. So, no, your attempt at moral equivalency and rabid straw-dog-ism failed massively.
    Congrats, you completely missed the point.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    If it was fair colleges would have women oriented classes like every day cooking, sewing,birthing, child rearing, how to properly please your man and how to properly please your man with another women, Its man's world 101, house cleaning and how to properly open and give you man a beer.
    Oh brother. They don't offer classes on mowing lawns, how to properly please your woman, etc. That is dumb

    And there is something called Culinary School...

  5. #115
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wiki? Seriously?

    I am unemployed. Haven't looked for a job in two years as I'm a stay at home dad.
    You are not part of the labor force, so the department of labor does not include you in the unemployment number.

    And why wouldn't those in gangs be considered part of an umemployed workforce? They can work to.
    Consider the case of a student. Say they are 18 years old, and going to college full time, are they "unemployed because they have the ability to work, and yet choose not to"? Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is how it goes.

    As to why black teenagers are "severly unemployed" how about you tell us since you already seem to know the answer.
    The answer is quite obvious. Employers, for some reason or another, do not like to hire black teenagers.

    I feel compelled to remind you that there are far less white gangs than there are colored gangs.
    Hmmmm, that is a tough one. Given the vast population differences, you are going out on a limb with that statement. But you have proven your prejudice.....
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You are not part of the labor force, so the department of labor does not include you in the unemployment number.
    But I have looked for a job via job service before. My name is in there. They will use it as it does not go away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    The answer is quite obvious. Employers, for some reason or another, do not like to hire black teenagers.
    Obviously you do not have the answer either. This is not an answer. It is a blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Hmmmm, that is a tough one. Given the vast population differences, you are going out on a limb with that statement. But you have proven your prejudice.....
    lol how does stating a fact prove that I'm prejudice?

    Age and race/ethnicity of gang members were measured in the
    1996, 1998, and 1999 surveys. In 1996, respondents reported
    that 50 percent of gang members were juveniles (i.e., younger
    than 18) and 50 percent were adults (i.e., 18 and older). In 1999,
    these numbers were 37 percent and 63 percent, respectively. In
    1999, respondents reported that 47 percent of gang members were
    Hispanic, 31 percent African American, 13 percent white, 7 percent
    Asian, and 2 percent “other.”
    The distribution of race/ethnicity of
    gang members varied little across measurement years.
    Link

    See this is the problem, if a person displays even a little bit of fact based on a statistic they are automatically "prejudiced" or "racist" or "bigoted" or whatever.
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  7. #117
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    But I have looked for a job via job service before. My name is in there. They will use it as it does not go away.
    You just stated that you are not actively seeking employment. Hence you are not unemployed.

    Obviously you do not have the answer either. This is not an answer. It is a blame.
    No, it is a fact. Otherwise, the black teenage unemployment rate (those who are actively seeking employment, but cannot obtain it for one reason or another) would be far smaller.

    lol how does stating a fact prove that I'm prejudice?
    Because you attribute race to a specific partaking of an action, when it is income that is the correlating determinant.


    Link

    See this is the problem, if a person displays even a little bit of fact based on a statistic they are automatically "prejudiced" or "racist" or "bigoted" or whatever.
    Now, for your next assignment, multiply the % by the aggregate population demographics, and report your findings. You stated there are "far less white gangs", not that there are far less white gangs as a percentage of the respective populations.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  8. #118
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That's fine that you don't "buy it," but there is pretty solid evidence out there that indicates that it exists. Look at the study I cited earlier in this thread for an example.
    I did say that there was prejudice out there...just that it is not near a factor as everyone is claiming.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    A lot more people think they didn't get a job because of a minority than those who actually don't get jobs because of minorities. It's an easy way to blame someone else for your own failures.
    And alot of people know the reason that they didn't get the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But "rich" and "poor" are not as readily observable and susceptible to prejudice.
    And that some how makes it right or better? If one is wrong then so is the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Lots of reasons, such as the fact that they have a shared background, they are more likely to understand their issues, etc.. I don't think I'm being particularly controversial here in saying this.
    So you're saying that a person that has always lived in the country goes to visit a doctor that has always lived in a city will have a "shared background"? Sorry but I don't see any shared background. City folks and country folks act totally different from each other. And it doesn't matter about the issues because all doctor's are taught the same basic things. An issue of avian flu is the same issue no matter where you are.


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you oppose the policy because it can lead to frivolous lawsuits? Why not just limit the frivolous lawsuits (which is how it works in practice)?
    I oppose it because of that yes. And because AA is reverse discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What government law?
    Federal Affirmative Action Law: A Brief History

    Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 42 U.S.C. § 2000d et seq.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If you don't think that those two people would still have different perspectives on a lot of things, I don't know what to say.
    Of course they would, it is the nature of being human. Everyone will have different perspectives from everyone else. But in that scenario it would not be one based on race.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You didn't explain anything. It's a fact that private schools are not required by the government to use affirmative action. They do so by choice.
    Any business (which a college is) that uses federal funding (which alot do) must follow AA.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm not trying to be rude, but if you really believe this, then you don't know what you're talking about. There are vast swaths of the country where public schools are 95+% individuals of a particular race. Even in more diverse areas, the schools tend to go by neighborhood, which leads to the same result. Why do you think they had to institute busing in so many areas?
    Thanks to my folks moving around alot while I was a kid I've had the opportunity to be in A LOT of different schools. Yes there were schools that did not have a lot of diversity. But they were in the very small minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I knew plenty of people who started college never having had a discussion with a black/hispanic/indian/asian/etc.
    How often have you moved in your life? I ask because someone that has lived in the same area for all their life would not have a very broad perspective of what is normal for school diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And again, you're assuming that there is absolutely no difference between the two individuals other than their GPA. That's just not the case.
    What other difference would matter for getting into a college?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Because Harvard wanted him, and they can do whatever the **** they want to do.
    Really? What do you think would happen to them if they decided that they wanted all whites in their school and proceeded to kick everyone that wasn't white out?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, there are more factors than just hard numbers. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want diversity in a group.
    Wanting diversity and it being forced on you is two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If you think this is the only area of life where this happens, I don't know what to say.
    This is the only area of life that we are discussing atm.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You can feel free to disagree with it, but nothing that you've said here is an actual refutation of the methodology of the study or its results.
    What did you want another study disputing it? There are plenty of ways to refute what is said in a study. And I provided one of them. Without knowing how they conducted their study there is no way to tell if the study is accurate. Until it is shown to be accurate it may be dismissed. Which means that the questions that I asked must be answered. Can you answer the questions that I asked? If you can't then how can you accept the study as accurate and not twisted to show a particular result? That is the problem with those types of studies. They can be purposely twisted to show a particular result..even if the one doing the twisting isn't meaning to. In order for such a study to be valid it must consider all possiblities and show that they factored those in.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  9. #119
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Let's apply racial quotas to the NBA then you'll understand how ridiculous racial quotas are.

  10. #120
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    Re: Affirmative Action (in college admissions): Good idea or Bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You just stated that you are not actively seeking employment. Hence you are not unemployed.
    Really? Then why don't I recieve a check?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    No, it is a fact. Otherwise, the black teenage unemployment rate (those who are actively seeking employment, but cannot obtain it for one reason or another) would be far smaller.
    Going by what you are saying you would be correct. But what you are saying to begin with is incorrect. Therefore your conclussions will be incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Because you attribute race to a specific partaking of an action, when it is income that is the correlating determinant.
    Income is just part of the correlating determinant. Not all of it. If a race is more prone to gang life then it will affect the numbers of employed (or unemployed) people when compared to others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Now, for your next assignment, multiply the % by the aggregate population demographics, and report your findings. You stated there are "far less white gangs", not that there are far less white gangs as a percentage of the respective populations.
    Whites make up around 74% of the population of the US. Yet only make up 13% of gangs. Hispanics make up around 13% of the total population of the US. Yet make up 47% gangs. Common sense should be enough to figure out the obvious here.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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