View Poll Results: Do you support school vouchers for public school children to attend private schools?

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  • Yes. I generally support any voucher program.

    21 45.65%
  • Yes, but only if the funds come from private programs, not government.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, but only if the students are smart enough.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, if the conditions under options 2 AND 3 are met.

    2 4.35%
  • No. I generally do not support any voucher program.

    17 36.96%
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Thread: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/grammar)

  1. #61
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    To my mind, if we don't teach the students who come from poor upbringings, if we don't teach the students who are born with learning or behavioral disabilities...
    My nephew's family lives in DC. He is Autistic, very bright but needs special training and a setting to learn. Everyone here knows that DC's educational system is a monstrosity. My sister had to sue to get my nephew placed in an special school and yes for the district to pay part of it some of the rest was paid by a Foundation for that purpose. Please do not tell me how the government schools are so good in these cases where in DC the schools pretend to teach and the "students" don't even pretend to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    then

    ... we will condemn a large minority of people to a cycle of poverty and ignorance, and we will all pay the price for that, as we should. Education is the foundation of opportunity. If we do it no where else in our system of prosperity, we should attempt to elevate everyone to a more equal level here.
    How about giving each and every student a best and fair chance to succeed and let the outcomes be based not on what the government schools want to teach in a one size fits all way but on the students ambition and talent. And I do mean best chance, no half baked program which will not help a student but make some people feel good that somthing was tried at least (and then blame society, the parents or the student.) And finaly, THE OUTCOME SHOULD NOT BE EQUALITY BUT THE BEST THE STUDENT COULD POSSIBLY BE. This is a much higher standard than saying we should raise the floor and no more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Any system of education must account for this requirement. The biggest problem with voucher systems is that they utterly fail to account for it. If they cannot account for this problem, they should be rejected.

    There are certain things free markets do not efficiently address, and a broadly educated society is one of them.
    How about systems of education. Let there be as many possible types of schools that would get voucher funding and each and every student would have a place that would help with that students weakness with respect to education. And the voucher system is not really a free market, the funding is tax based and the State government would impose some sort of standards on the schools that did accept funding (mostly health, zoning, but some making sure it is not a fly-by-night operation, also making sure that the school wont run out of other funds if it is a start up.)

  2. #62
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    I favor vouchers if, and only if, those vouchers come with strings attached. Government money should not be going to any program, public or private, which does not meet educational standards and require testing to make sure students are actually learning at required levels. If you do that, I've got no problem with it. However, most private schools would refuse to take government vouchers if they had to actually prove they were doing a good job, were actually required to teach actual science, actual history, etc. The reason most of these private schools exist in the first place is they don't want to have to provide an actual well-rounded, fact-based education.

    Until they're willing to, I say no to vouchers.
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  3. #63
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    So you're telling me you trust government regulators more than parents to care about children's education? Because the Department of Education has done such a good job thus far?
    Certainly they have to do a lot better, but yes, a team of professional educators and experts from a wide variety of fields is certainly better than uneducated parents at deciding what a child ought to be learning to become a functional member of society. The reason that most school boards are so awful is because they draw from that pool of uneducated parents and political hacks with an agenda, who then use emotional, rather than rational decision-making to decide what they want kids to learn, mostly so it doesn't interfere with the silly things they personally believe.
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  4. #64
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    Really? Once again, because the Department of Education has proven so effective thus far?
    I already said that they'd need to do a lot better, didn't I?

    Tell me, what specific structural changes would there be to make sure that these decisions are being made by unbiased apolitical experts? Let's say Mike Huckabee gets elected President with a big Republican majority and decides to stack this team full of people that don't believe in evolution and think that anywhere that teaches any form of evolution (including bacterial and cellular evolution) isn't fit to teach students, what then?
    Actually, I'd rather take the decision-making process out of the hands of the politicians entirely because the politicians are no more educationally-saavy than most parents. I'd rather see a completely apolitical group made up of professional scientists and educators making the decisions of what the curriculum ought to include and then have a pool of people who work in that field actually decide the specifics of what ought to be learned at what level. Of course, this is only going to apply to the sciences, which are in a horrible state in the United States today, but a similar system could be put in place for softer subjects as well.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    And what makes you think that that would be reasonable to expect?
    Expecting intelligence from the elected is like expecting it from the electorate. It's nice to wish for but to seriously expect it... not really a good bet. Nothing is ever going to change because we're going to have the same ignorant voters putting equally ignorant politicians in charge. This isn't a question that is going to have an easy answer, it's one where you have to give a little wishful thinking that we might actually be able to solve the problem.

    Taking it out of the hands of the people (which is what you're talking about, saying parents can't decide and their elected officials can't decide) is authoritarianism.
    Yes it is and in some places, it's necessary. The ignorant and uneducated are inherently incapable of making decisions on education. We no longer live in a world where the majority of people can get an 8th grade education and still find work and be a functional part of an increasingly technological society. When you have a lot of parents who didn't need to know anything about them durn computers and neither do their kids... that's a problem. In order to shift from a largely rural non-technical society to a highly-technical society, kids need to learn not only how to function, but how to think rationally and critically about the world around them.

    Where in the Constitution do you suggest the government is given the authority to create a board of philosopher kings with no democratic oversight whatsoever with the authority to dictate a large proportion of how children are raised and to do so with taxpayer money (which they presumably would have to have unlimited access to, to prevent the politicization of the appropriations process)?
    Where in the Constitution does it mention automobile licenses? Like it or not, the Constitution is not the end-all-be-all of reality. It was meant to be a growing, evolving document but some people are so in love with the words that they can't move beyond them to the concepts.
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  6. #66
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Kids in crappy schools should be given the option to obtain vouchers to go to schools which don't suck so much.

  7. #67
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Kids in crappy schools should be given the option to obtain vouchers to go to schools which don't suck so much.
    What makes you think that going to better schools is going to make better students? Most crappy schools are crappy because nobody cares, neither parents or students, what happens. Moving the same stupid parents and students to another school isn't going to magically make them value education.
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  8. #68
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    What makes you think that going to better schools is going to make better students? Most crappy schools are crappy because nobody cares, neither parents or students, what happens. Moving the same stupid parents and students to another school isn't going to magically make them value education.
    Applying for a voucher is already a sign that the parents care. The students might not care simply because the teachers don't care.

    This is not all about education, either. Some schools are downright dangerous places, where survival is a priority above education. Kids should not have to belong to such an environment if their parents do not wish it.

  9. #69
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Layla_Z View Post
    This is one of many reasons I said vouchers would be a bad idea. If you want to focus on this and ignore the rest, that's fine. That still leaves many reasons the vouchers would be terrible.

    But.. what is to stop a school from being crippled by the loss in funding due to the students leaving? For each student that leaves, the school loses money. This makes it harder to teach the students who are left. My point is that we should fix the public school because it can teach everyone rather than take out a few students and leave the rest in a failing school.
    So your willing to leave the good students in a poor setting because the school will loose money? They should fall on their sword for the collective?

    I've heard schools need to be fixed all my short life and to date no one has done anything responsible in "fixing" these schools.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  10. #70
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Applying for a voucher is already a sign that the parents care. The students might not care simply because the teachers don't care.
    It's more likely that students don't care because their parents don't care. I'm sure you'd get plenty of parents who are pretty apathetic signing up for vouchers in the hopes that a new school might improve their kids, but that improvement has to come from the home, teachers can't magically make kids want to get educated.

    This is not all about education, either. Some schools are downright dangerous places, where survival is a priority above education. Kids should not have to belong to such an environment if their parents do not wish it.
    Yes, I'll agree with you, but again, what made the schools dangerous in the first place? They don't get that way on their own.
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