View Poll Results: Do you support school vouchers for public school children to attend private schools?

Voters
46. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes. I generally support any voucher program.

    21 45.65%
  • Yes, but only if the funds come from private programs, not government.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, but only if the students are smart enough.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, if the conditions under options 2 AND 3 are met.

    2 4.35%
  • No. I generally do not support any voucher program.

    17 36.96%
Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 78

Thread: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/grammar)

  1. #51
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,753

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    !*WARNING*! Massive wall of text! !*WARNING*!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Yes, they would have to accept any student the public schools are required to accept.
    As I see it, having schools which cater to a specific type of student has both positives and negatives to it.

    • A positive is that a more specific and tailored teaching environment has the potential to, in the end, produce a better educated graduate.
    • A negative is that students in such a tailored , specific teaching environment would have little to no contact with other types of students...something essential in my mind to producing a well-educated graduate.


    Perhaps if there were specific, tailored schools which taught the students which fit that category certain subjects, but once or twice a week the students would attend a class with all other types of students? I can imagine students dividing into groups, calling those from other groups various names...

    Perhaps students could be taught in tailored teaching environments up to a certain point and then tossed into the sea which is middle/junior high/high school or whatever.

    ^ Me thinking while typing. ^

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    What about them? Let them teach using whatever philosophy they wish, Let them teach whatever emphasis they wish. As for gender specific, I have no objection, just make them accept people from the gender on a first come first serve basis.
    This is reasonable, perhaps. But what if the teaching style they use does not fit the student they are required to accept? I doubt that any student learns the same way as another. The ideal, of course, would be to have each student have 1 teacher. That is the role parents are supposed to take when their child is dealing with homework.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    The only effect is that they would have to deal with the difficult students. If the school is going to be publicly funded, then it must address the issue of educating difficult students.
    Reasonable. But what limits will be placed on how they deal with said student? And my previous response also has some bearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    No, I do not think that private schools should have to deal with a Union if their school has not been unionized. However, I think I might require a private school to only hire teachers with teaching credentials... that is, if they want to accept vouchers.
    What are the requirements for teaching credentials? Are they reasonable to the level of teaching? Who sets the requirements? Are teaching unions involved in any way in setting the requirements for teaching credentials? If so, would this not give them leverage on private schools who did not have unionized teachers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    There is room for that in the system I have described.
    Good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    The schools that are not teaching well aren't failing at this task due to not being specialized enough. It is mostly due to the fact that they have to deal with problems epidemic in our broader society. Requiring private schools to have to address those problems too would help prevent society from shoving those broader problems under our collective rug.
    I personally think that better education is a key if not THE key to solving most if not all of those "problems epidemic in our broader society".

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    The day we forget completely that we are all in this together will be the day just prior to our complete failure as a society, and deservedly so, in my view.
    I think I agree with this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Perhaps. But, my recommendation would help that situation in any event.
    I think standards for various areas of study are needed. But the danger is that teachers may "teach by the test", or something. This, I have read, is a problem in some areas of the world. Not to mention some areas of the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Nope, that's not what I said at all. I am, however, preventing public money from going to schools that would refuse to do their part in meeting society's goal of educating ALL of the populace.
    I don't see how tailoring their education program to a certain type of student prevents them from "doing their part in meeting society's goal of educating ALL of the populace." Yes, they aren't teaching all types of students, but that in and of itself might be one of the reasons they could possibly do better at teaching the ones they DO teach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Yes, I want to continue the 'confiscation of tax' for all sorts of things, like national defense, the FDA, student grant/loan programs, etc. etc. If YOU don't want to live in a society, then go someplace where there isn't one, like... Somalia. I am fairly certain you could completely avoid paying taxes there... however, your next door neighbor might take your stuff from you. But, hey, at least you wouldn't have the guv'ment pushing you around and taking your money.
    In my mind, there are certain things which should be supported by taxes. National Defense, of course, as that is THE main reason for a government to exist.
    Everything else, IMO, is debatable. This is not to say that any of them are not necessary, as many of them are. I just am using this general answer to avoid going through all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    An unregulated voucher system would not be a compromise.
    I don't think anyone, after at least SOME thought on the question, would support an unregulated voucher system... The horror that could occur.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #52
    Sage
    Dezaad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Last Seen
    06-28-15 @ 10:43 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    5,058
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    To my mind, if we don't teach the students who come from poor upbringings, if we don't teach the students who are born with learning or behavioral disabilities...

    then

    ... we will condemn a large minority of people to a cycle of poverty and ignorance, and we will all pay the price for that, as we should. Education is the foundation of opportunity. If we do it no where else in our system of prosperity, we should attempt to elevate everyone to a more equal level here.

    Any system of education must account for this requirement. The biggest problem with voucher systems is that they utterly fail to account for it. If they cannot account for this problem, they should be rejected.

    There are certain things free markets do not efficiently address, and a broadly educated society is one of them.

  3. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    NO. 1. There is no evidence that private schools perform better than public schools.
    Unless you live in the ghetto.

  4. #54
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,753

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    To my mind, if we don't teach the students who come from poor upbringings, if we don't teach the students who are born with learning or behavioral disabilities...

    then

    ... we will condemn a large minority of people to a cycle of poverty and ignorance, and we will all pay the price for that, as we should. Education is the foundation of opportunity. If we do it no where else in our system of prosperity, we should attempt to elevate everyone to a more equal level here.
    I agree with you on this. Education is the key to any betterment of oneself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Any system of education must account for this requirement. The biggest problem with voucher systems is that they utterly fail to account for it. If they cannot account for this problem, they should be rejected.

    There are certain things free markets do not efficiently address, and a broadly educated society is one of them.
    I do not know enough about the current voucher proposals out there, to agree or disagree wity you, but I think it possible that some form of a voucher system could address your issues.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  5. #55
    Guru
    OKgrannie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Last Seen
    12-07-17 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    4,221

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    We are already doing that. We just put kids with behavioral problems in the same classes as everyone else, with teachers not specially trained to deal with them, turning our teachers into babysitters, depriving all of their students, learning disabled or otherwise, of a quality education.

    An example, my best friend has some pretty severe learning abilities. He's got a genius level IQ, but he's got something that's similar to dyslexia. He went to public school for kindergarten and first grade (mind you, in a very liberal city with extraordinary funding for our schools), and his mom pulled him out because his teachers were abusing him due to his disability. He transferred to a private school nearby where they spend significantly less per student and he never had another problem with finding accommodation for his learning disability again.
    Public schools are preposterously inefficient in how they spend their money, they don't have structural incentives that require quality of performance. So they get poor performance, and all they can do is throw money at the problems and hope that it will solve the problem. One of the first things that are subject to budget cuts is special ed programs.

    If there were school vouchers there is no way kids with special needs would get stuck in a school that does not cater to their needs. The kids have vouchers, either you provide them with what they need or someone else will. You're giving special ed kids the ability to get out of schools that don't provide them with sufficient care, an option they do not have in the current system. How exactly do you suggest that allowing them this option would hurt these kids?
    Your friend's experience was not typical. Private schools select their students, so why would they select students that are more expensive to educate? Special ed kids and those with other handicaps will most likely be left in public schools that will have lost a good deal of their funding.

    As far as vouchers helping poor students get out of public schools, the voucher may cover the cost of tuition and perhaps even books, but students are left to cover many other expenses themselves, such as uniforms, fees, transportation, school supplies, etc., these extra expenses may mean the poorer students still cannot afford private schools.

    Special Voucher Report -- Vouchers: Special Ed Students Need Not Apply -- Rethinking Schools Online

    Milwaukee's voucher program, the country's oldest, has long been seen as a prototype for what, in essence, is a conservative strategy to privatize education under the guise of "choice." With the U.S. Congress poised to start the first federally funded voucher program next fall in the Washington, D.C., schools, vouchers have once again jumped to the fore of educational debate.

    Although Milwaukee's voucher schools receive tax dollars, they operate as private schools and thus can ignore almost all of the requirements and accountability measures that public schools must follow. They do not, for example, have to hire certified teachers, nor administer the same tests as public schools, nor report their students' academic achievement.

    Nor do they have to provide the special education services required of public schools.
    While voucher supporters portray vouchers as a new Civil Rights Movement, disability activists see a different reality.

    Jim Ward, president of ADA Watch and the National Coalition for Disability Rights in Washington, D.C., warns that voucher programs threaten the rights of students with special needs. He cites a 1998 survey by the U.S. Department of Education that between 70 and 85 percent of private schools in large inner cities would "definitely or probably" not participate in a voucher program if required to accept "students with special needs such as learning disabilities, limited English proficiency, or low achievement." Among religious schools, the figure was 86 percent.
    "The Supreme Court's 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision struck down 'separate but equal' schools, but voucher programs threaten to usher in a new form of segregation," Ward warns.
    "Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending."
    ~Anonymous

  6. #56
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    NO. 1. There is no evidence that private schools perform better than public schools.
    2. Since 95% of private schools are sectarian, it is basically a way to fund church schools with public money.
    3. The government will still have to fund public schools for all the students the private schools reject, the private school rejected students are usually the more expensive to educate, the handicapped, the special-needs students, and they will have to do it with less money per student.
    Vouchers is the only alternative right now. But just remember where those "public moneys" came from. They came from taxpayers, who have a right to educate their children they way they see fit.

    The truth is you have no evidence that privates are better than publics.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  7. #57
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    Your friend's experience was not typical. Private schools select their students, so why would they select students that are more expensive to educate? Special ed kids and those with other handicaps will most likely be left in public schools that will have lost a good deal of their funding.

    As far as vouchers helping poor students get out of public schools, the voucher may cover the cost of tuition and perhaps even books, but students are left to cover many other expenses themselves, such as uniforms, fees, transportation, school supplies, etc., these extra expenses may mean the poorer students still cannot afford private schools.

    Special Voucher Report -- Vouchers: Special Ed Students Need Not Apply -- Rethinking Schools Online

    Milwaukee's voucher program, the country's oldest, has long been seen as a prototype for what, in essence, is a conservative strategy to privatize education under the guise of "choice." With the U.S. Congress poised to start the first federally funded voucher program next fall in the Washington, D.C., schools, vouchers have once again jumped to the fore of educational debate.

    Although Milwaukee's voucher schools receive tax dollars, they operate as private schools and thus can ignore almost all of the requirements and accountability measures that public schools must follow. They do not, for example, have to hire certified teachers, nor administer the same tests as public schools, nor report their students' academic achievement.

    Nor do they have to provide the special education services required of public schools. While voucher supporters portray vouchers as a new Civil Rights Movement, disability activists see a different reality.

    Jim Ward, president of ADA Watch and the National Coalition for Disability Rights in Washington, D.C., warns that voucher programs threaten the rights of students with special needs. He cites a 1998 survey by the U.S. Department of Education that between 70 and 85 percent of private schools in large inner cities would "definitely or probably" not participate in a voucher program if required to accept "students with special needs such as learning disabilities, limited English proficiency, or low achievement." Among religious schools, the figure was 86 percent.
    "The Supreme Court's 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision struck down 'separate but equal' schools, but voucher programs threaten to usher in a new form of segregation," Ward warns.
    Total hogwash, and you know it.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #58
    Professor
    Layla_Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Last Seen
    05-31-17 @ 08:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    1,440
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I understand your point, and the main problem behind it is what I said. Why will the kids be abandoned? Because the parents don't care. "Because the parents don't care" is really not a strong argument. What about those students with parents who do care? Why should they be left at a public school and lose their opportunity because some students have parents who don't care? It simply isn't right. And if that child had uncaring parents, if there was a voucher program or not he would still be at the same school and would still have the same outcome. That last sentence of yours really doesn't make any sense. With or without vouchers it would be like that.

    You are basically arguing that since not every single student will be able to go to private school from a public school, none should. And I don't think that is right at all. It doesn't have to be 10 kids from every class (which I doubt it would). It could be 1 or 2. Nobody is arguing that we take so many kids out of public schools that they are crippled and underfunded (which doesn't make sense because all tax payers pay for public school, so the funds will stay roughly the same...)
    This is one of many reasons I said vouchers would be a bad idea. If you want to focus on this and ignore the rest, that's fine. That still leaves many reasons the vouchers would be terrible.

    But.. what is to stop a school from being crippled by the loss in funding due to the students leaving? For each student that leaves, the school loses money. This makes it harder to teach the students who are left. My point is that we should fix the public school because it can teach everyone rather than take out a few students and leave the rest in a failing school.
    ~Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
    ~I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
    ~If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?
    George Carlin

  9. #59
    Guru
    OKgrannie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Last Seen
    12-07-17 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    4,221

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Total hogwash, and you know it.
    Would you care to provide any reasons why you think it is hogwash and back it up with credible links?
    "Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending."
    ~Anonymous

  10. #60
    Guru
    OKgrannie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Last Seen
    12-07-17 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    4,221

    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Vouchers is the only alternative right now. But just remember where those "public moneys" came from. They came from taxpayers, who have a right to educate their children they way they see fit.
    Parents do have a right to educate their children as they wish, so long as they fulfill state laws requiring education, but they do not have a right to expect taxpayers to pay for it. One, taxpayers have a right to expect the government to fund quality education, and two, taxpayers should not have to pay money that benefits any religion.

    The truth is you have no evidence that privates are better than publics.
    Exactly, and neither do you.
    "Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending."
    ~Anonymous

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •