View Poll Results: Do you support school vouchers for public school children to attend private schools?

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  • Yes. I generally support any voucher program.

    21 45.65%
  • Yes, but only if the funds come from private programs, not government.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, but only if the students are smart enough.

    3 6.52%
  • Yes, if the conditions under options 2 AND 3 are met.

    2 4.35%
  • No. I generally do not support any voucher program.

    17 36.96%
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Thread: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/grammar)

  1. #41
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    It can be said that there is a rational interest in pursuing the existence of equality of opportunity, and the establishment of voucher programs typically act contrary to that goal, as affirmed by examination of the empirical literature. For instance, examination of Levin's Educational Vouchers: Effectiveness, Choice, and Costs makes the point well. Consider the abstract:

    Most of the policy discussion on the effects of educational vouchers has been premised on theoretical or ideological positions rather than evidence. This article analyzes a substantial body of recent empirical evidence on achievement differences between public and private schools; on who chooses and its probable impact on educational equity; and on the comparative costs of public and private schools and an overall voucher system. The findings indicate that: (1) results among numerous studies suggest no difference or only a slight advantage for private schools over public schools in student achievement for a given student, but evidence of substantially higher rates of graduation, college attendance, and college graduation for Catholic high school students; (2) evidence is consistent that educational choice leads to greater socioeconomic (SES) and racial segregation of students; and (3) evidence does not support the contention that costs of private schools are considerably lower than those of public schools, but the costs of an overall voucher infrastructure appear to exceed those of the present system.
    Now, there are far deeper and more critical deficiencies in the school system and presently existing "education" as a whole related to their inability to foster appropriate intellectual development, but that's my comment on vouchers, for what it's worth.

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Josef Stalin Quote

    "Education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Sadly, there are parents who would not go to the trouble so those children will remain in public schools.
    That's the parents own fault. If they really cared about their children, they would go through the application process. If they don't, there is nothing any school can do. That is a terrible argument. Parents not caring does not mean that a voucher system wont work. I think there are enough parents that care about their children enough to go through that process. You have to work for things. You can't always expect the government to just give you free handouts. That is called a nanny state, and your line of logic seems to be tied to that.

    So you think freedom and choice are good so long as people don't choose anything you're personally morally averse to?
    Its true. People choose to be around people who they see as "more like them". Not because they are racist, but because they are more comfortable.
    Last edited by Lakryte; 07-24-09 at 04:55 AM.

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Someone earlier said that there should be the separation of church and education. I think the concept behind that thought is a good one, but I don't know if it will really work. There will always be needy people who MUST have an education in this society if they are to have any hope at advancing. If they are poor AND stupid they will be stuck on welfare forever, and we don't want that.

    What I think should have been done instead of private schools is this:

    Instead of creating a government run education system, use vouchers for ALL the poor who can't afford school to attend private schools. That way, only those who truly cannot afford education can get it. Those who really don't need any help from government can pay themselves. It would surely bring costs down I would think. But I don't know how practical that idea is. It's just a thought I had.

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    I thought you were a libertarian. You're fine with the state forcing integration when people do not do so freely? I mean, as harsh as it is, people tend to choose to be around people of their own race. I have never seen a city that has significant populations of multiple races that isn't clearly segregated, where you couldn't clearly identify the lines between black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods.

    So you think freedom and choice are good so long as people don't choose anything you're personally morally averse to?
    It's a matter of facilitation of equality of opportunity (and therefore alleviating the more authoritarian elements of the capitalist labor market by strengthening the bargaining position of the working class). Forced racial integration isn't precisely the purpose or the major means necessary to that goal; it's merely a matter of not taking proactive measures that would exacerbate existing segregation.

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    Allowing kids and their parents choice in the school they attend exacerbates existing segregation?
    First of all, it's a matter of parental choice, not student choice, which I have other objections to aside from the matter of exacerbation of inequality of opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    That's premised upon the base being the status quo of pressured attendance to public schools. You wanna talk about authoritarian, you've got the vast majority of poor kids being economically pressured into attending public schools to facilitate the funding source of the teachers union. It's well funded powerful political interests using the government to steal from the poor, how in the hell can you support it? Because people in general aren't as racially progressive as they claim to be?
    I don't know where you got that idea. While such unions are problematic and ultimately anti-progressive, it would ultimately be a greater imposition of authoritarianism were rampant inequality of opportunity not challenged. When you incorporate the additional facts that "results among numerous studies suggest no difference or only a slight advantage for private schools over public schools in student achievement for a given student" and "evidence does not support the contention that costs of private schools are considerably lower than those of public schools, but the costs of an overall voucher infrastructure appear to exceed those of the present system," there's of course even stronger justifications against voucher programs.

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    That's the parents own fault. If they really cared about their children, they would go through the application process. If they don't, there is nothing any school can do. That is a terrible argument. Parents not caring does not mean that a voucher system wont work. I think there are enough parents that care about their children enough to go through that process. You have to work for things. You can't always expect the government to just give you free handouts. That is called a nanny state, and your line of logic seems to be tied to that.

    This was not my only argument against vouchers, however it is a valid one. My point, that you seemed to miss, is that these students of uncaring parents will be abandoned at the failing public school. Public schools deal with kids whose parents don't care all the time. The teachers there go out of their way to help those students because they know that the school is the safest place the child is all day. It would be very unlikely for this kind of student to find his or her way to a quality private school. Therefore, this child now finds himself at a failing public school that is even more underfunded. As I said before, sadly it is very likely we'll be supporting this student throughout his adult life.
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    NO. 1. There is no evidence that private schools perform better than public schools.
    2. Since 95% of private schools are sectarian, it is basically a way to fund church schools with public money.
    3. The government will still have to fund public schools for all the students the private schools reject, the private school rejected students are usually the more expensive to educate, the handicapped, the special-needs students, and they will have to do it with less money per student.
    A few things I see as possible, if private schools take "on the fence" children, that is, kids who are bright and have a good shot at a successful future but are in a school that is failing them maybe sending them to a better school is a preferrable option, whether it be a public, magnet, gifted, or private school. Also, if a secular school should open with a pure education model, a voucher system could send those children there in lieu of a sectarian school and the child would still be served, this would also enable the secular school to remain open and fulfill enrollment goals, thus we would have a better school for those that may not be Catholic, Baptist, Christian other, etc. and the best and brightest children would have a chance at a better education. Just my 2 cents.
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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    This was not my only argument against vouchers, however it is a valid one. My point, that you seemed to miss, is that these students of uncaring parents will be abandoned at the failing public school. Public schools deal with kids whose parents don't care all the time. The teachers there go out of their way to help those students because they know that the school is the safest place the child is all day. It would be very unlikely for this kind of student to find his or her way to a quality private school. Therefore, this child now finds himself at a failing public school that is even more underfunded. As I said before, sadly it is very likely we'll be supporting this student throughout his adult life.
    I understand your point, and the main problem behind it is what I said. Why will the kids be abandoned? Because the parents don't care. "Because the parents don't care" is really not a strong argument. What about those students with parents who do care? Why should they be left at a public school and lose their opportunity because some students have parents who don't care? It simply isn't right. And if that child had uncaring parents, if there was a voucher program or not he would still be at the same school and would still have the same outcome. That last sentence of yours really doesn't make any sense. With or without vouchers it would be like that.

    You are basically arguing that since not every single student will be able to go to private school from a public school, none should. And I don't think that is right at all. It doesn't have to be 10 kids from every class (which I doubt it would). It could be 1 or 2. Nobody is arguing that we take so many kids out of public schools that they are crippled and underfunded (which doesn't make sense because all tax payers pay for public school, so the funds will stay roughly the same...)

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    Re: Are you in favor of vouchers for children to attend private schools? (high/gramma

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Would that include juvenile delinquents that cause a lot of problems in the government schools?
    Yes, they would have to accept any student the public schools are required to accept.

    What about the schools that use a particular philosophy like the Montessori, or schools that have a stronger emphasis on the liberal arts, or those who are gender specific.
    What about them? Let them teach using whatever philosophy they wish, Let them teach whatever emphasis they wish. As for gender specific, I have no objection, just make them accept people from the gender on a first come first serve basis.

    And what would a government instituted placement would put on those types?
    The only effect is that they would have to deal with the difficult students. If the school is going to be publicly funded, then it must address the issue of educating difficult students.


    Do you mean unfunded mandates by the Federal and State governments?
    In some cases, yes.

    Or the Teachers Unions that go well beyond their proper purpose of representing the teachers interest in getting compensated for their work?
    No, I do not think that private schools should have to deal with a Union if their school has not been unionized. However, I think I might require a private school to only hire teachers with teaching credentials... that is, if they want to accept vouchers.


    How about having the private schools attend the students specific strengths and needs?
    There is room for that in the system I have described.

    How about a boot camp style for those trouble makers mentioned earlier and a fine arts based school with those students with that particular strength? The idea is not to simply make a private based copy of the government schools but to find better solutions and more importantly more specific solutions for students as individuals and not a one size fits all format.
    The schools that are not teaching well aren't failing at this task due to not being specialized enough. It is mostly due to the fact that they have to deal with problems epidemic in our broader society. Requiring private schools to have to address those problems too would help prevent society from shoving those broader problems under our collective rug.

    The day we forget completely that we are all in this together will be the day just prior to our complete failure as a society, and deservedly so, in my view.


    The educational requirement of teaching science for the voucher sound good but in general the government schools do a poor job of doing so.
    Perhaps. But, my recommendation would help that situation in any event.


    In other words the private school would have to be a near clone to the government school to be acceptable.
    Nope, that's not what I said at all. I am, however, preventing public money from going to schools that would refuse to do their part in meeting society's goal of educating ALL of the populace.


    ... you want to continue the confiscation thru tax to continue it.
    Yes, I want to continue the 'confiscation of tax' for all sorts of things, like national defense, the FDA, student grant/loan programs, etc. etc. If YOU don't want to live in a society, then go someplace where there isn't one, like... Somalia. I am fairly certain you could completely avoid paying taxes there... however, your next door neighbor might take your stuff from you. But, hey, at least you wouldn't have the guv'ment pushing you around and taking your money.


    The time has come to try something else a voucher system would be a good compromise to a only government solution to one with only private or religious schools.
    An unregulated voucher system would not be a compromise.

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