View Poll Results: Should Congress create an amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

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  • Yes

    20 39.22%
  • No

    22 43.14%
  • Yes, but it could never get passed.

    6 11.76%
  • I have no opinion.

    3 5.88%
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Thread: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

  1. #221
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    Because the constitution says so is not really a reason.
    My argument was not based on 'the constitution says so' it as based on the idea that the US is a federal republic of sovereign states, and, given that the President is the head of the government of that federal republic, the states should (and therefore do) determine the President.

  2. #222
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    When discussing the rightness or wrongness of something, it is not at all important what the law says. The law does not serve as evidence for what is right or wrong. Using the law to try to determine what is right or wrong is backwards. You logically and ideally through evidence try to determine what is right or wrong and then try to get the law to follow it.
    This isn't about "right or wrong." It's about a method of selecting the President.
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  3. #223
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    This isn't about "right or wrong." It's about a method of selecting the President.
    The rightness or wrongness of our method of selecting the president. When the OP is about whether an amendment should be used to abolish the EC, then it becomes an argument of what we should do, not on what the law says.

  4. #224
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Fair enough. Though I would hesitate to use "right" or "wrong" do describe proposing alternatives, because there's really no moral component to it. It's a matter of practicality and preference.
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  5. #225
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Well, yes, but the Constitution seems to contradict this one (or at least the parts that I bolded).
    True, it does contradict it, but that doesn't mean that what Hamilton describes isn't what the expected approach would be.


    I think that's being too generous. The argument he made clearly indicates a direct involvement of the people, something, as noted, not found anywhere in the Constitution. If F68 was intended to gain the support of the people based on the idea that said constitution woudl mandate that they have a say in elelcting th ePresident, he was misleading (at best).
    I don't disagree with you there. Misleading at best, lying at worst.

    Well, OK, but I still dont see how this supports your 'the state ARE uneuqal' argument. All it really does is describe the process and imply that the people would participate.
    The states are unequal argument is mainly based on the fact that they don't have equal EC votes. If they were meant to have an equal say, they would have equal votes.

    I think that some degree of representation, even if not direct, was definitely and clearly a determinant factor for the way that the number of EC votes were decided.


    However true that may be, the fact is they gave the legislatures plenary power to do so -- and thru the 1800s, many states legislatures took it upon themselves to do so.
    True. I disagree with them having done that.


    Which makes me wonder why that was not specified by the Constitution.
    Perhaps, as noted above, this was just lip service, indicating that there was no intention to involve the people, but the need for popular support to ratify the constituion, such an involvement had to be stated.
    I think there might be truth to that.


    The Constitution is not set up for it to work that way. I -love- to tell people that their state could decide to not hold an election and seat their electors based on a game of poker -- or just seat the guy from (the other party) outright.
    Yeah, I've seen you do it. (Hell, in that first conversation we had on this you DID do that to me. )

    I realize that this is true and that's why in one of my earlier posts (I think it was my first or second one in this thread) I said that I don't care if a some state I don't live in decides to use the groundhog seeing it's shadow or not as the determining factor for choosing where their EC votes go. Technically, they can do that.

    My personal compromise with my distaste for the EC is that I only concern myself with Illinois' votes.

    I just don't want those votes to suddenly become a single vote, thus negating my ability to change Illinois!

    If that one state = one vote thing actually happened, I'd be forced to argue for the abolishment of the EC altogether, which means I'd have to be in favor of an amendment. Which means I would have to argue, somewhat counter-intuitively, to increase federal authority over the States (which I define as a hybrid of the People of that state + their Legislatures), which would basically really piss me off.

    (Note: I'm not really sure if the above paragraph will make any sense to anyone but myself. Trust me, in my ****ed up brain that makes perfect sense.)

    That's fine. Call your legislators.
    I have, and they suck. Oh wait, the next sentence shows you already know that.


    Of course, given the other things they do you you out on IL, I'd not hold out too much hope.
    Way to twist the knife.

  6. #226
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yeah, and when Hayes became President, the Supreme Court actually CHANGED the vote count of the Electoral College.
    Was it four votes that were thrown out? I forget offhand.

  7. #227
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post
    It should have been very obvious that I had started talking about another kind of proportional representation that actually would make the American government system better. It is, in fact, relevant to the discussion because the main reason we do not use proportional representation in Congress is the same illogical dedication to political districts instead of the the will of the people. Now, I do not think the will of the people is the best way of determining things, but it sure as hell makes more sense than doing it based upon legal entities such as states/districts.
    It should also have been very obvious I WAS talking about the EC and thus your response was both off-topic and irrelevant as a response to my discussion of proportional allocation.

    The reason we use political districts is because our governemtn was designed to NOT be centralized under a federal authority, but instead was meant to have limitted overall federal authority.

    The reason it has gotten screwed up is because it BECAME centralized under a strong federal authority that has usurped powers it was never meant to have.

    Proportional representation as you describe, a the national level, will exacerbate the problem, not alleviate it, because it assumes that the current status quo of a strong federal authority is preferable.

    Proportional representation within a state? I'm all for it. Nationally? I'm against it. I'd prefer to see limitations placed on the federal authority and a return to the decentralized values that this country was founded upon.

    But that's a totally different ball of wax than the current discussion.

  8. #228
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Actually, it happened with John Q. Adams, Rutherford B. Hayes and Benjamin Harrison as well as Bush. All of them had fewer popular votes but won their respective elections.
    I stand corrected. Bush has been the only case of this since the late 1800s. A careless mistake on my part.
    Last edited by Lakryte; 07-23-09 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #229
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I stand corrected. Bush has been the only case of this since the late 1800s. A careless mistake on my part.
    No worries. I make mistakes like that every six posts myself.

  10. #230
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    No worries. I make mistakes like that every six posts myself.
    I feel like an idiot... But thanks for not holding it against me.

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