View Poll Results: Should Congress create an amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

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  • Yes

    20 39.22%
  • No

    22 43.14%
  • Yes, but it could never get passed.

    6 11.76%
  • I have no opinion.

    3 5.88%
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Thread: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

  1. #181
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Then why do they say that the States are entitled to a certain number of representatives in congress instead of The State's People are entitled to a certain number of representatives in congress?
    It doesn't. It says "The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. "

    It's referring to the people choosing, not the states.

    Where it enumerates the specific numbers for each state is a clear temporary measure until a proper census could be conducted.


    I think it's quite clear that State referes to the combination of Legislature + People of a State. It's quite evidence in the following statement: "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct...."

    If the State always meat governing body, there would be no need to add "in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct" since that would be the only way a State, in the sense of the governing body, could choose.
    As opposed to the Governor, or the Courts, or some other method. In fact, specifying the Legislature PREVENTS things like popular referenda.

    It's very clear that State = legislature + people.
    No. It's not. The opposite is true.


    That's why the total number of congressional delegates that each state is entitled to is Senators + Representatives.
    How does this show anything of the kind? There are two Senators and however many Representatives the population warrants. How could it come out to anything else?
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  2. #182
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Actually it does mean my vote has less value. It becomes totally inconsequential BECAUSE my candidate is not as popular in my state.
    Your candidate being unpopular doesnt make your right to vote unequal, it means you voted for someone that lost,

    But it doesn't. It creates a situation where the minority of the people dictate to the majority.
    2 false premises here:
    -The People are not dictating as the people do not elect the President.
    -The are numerous instances where the minority can and does legitimate dictate to the majority.

    It breeds in equality. The individual in Wyoming will have more intrinsic value than the individual in New York simply because Wyoming has no people in it.
    Again, this is a false standard. The people in Wyoming and New York are not voting for the same thing, and so you cannot compare the equity of their votes in that context.

    Sure, the States have the same rights and restrictions, but they most definitely don't have equal representation in the government. See Article I Section I.
    They do. Each have 2 senators.

    Combine article I Section II with Article II Section I:
    Yes. This is why I suggested a one-vote EC, to restore equality of the states.

  3. #183
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    The House does not represent the States. It represents the People. The American people as a whole, not the people of the States.
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  4. #184
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It doesn't. It says "The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. "
    Actually, I was refering to how EC votes are delegated. See Article II Section 1:

    "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

    See the bolded section? that's where my quote comes from.

    It's referring to the people choosing, not the states.

    Where it enumerates the specific numbers for each state is a clear temporary measure until a proper census could be conducted.
    And the final number of representatives is still determined by the population of each state and granted to the state based on the calculations. It is not dictated by the national population and then separated by a number of people.

    It also says "The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative".


    As opposed to the Governor, or the Courts, or some other method. In fact, specifying the Legislature PREVENTS things like popular referenda.
    The governors and the courts of each state have no representation. It is only the State Legislature and the peopel of each state that has representation.


    No. It's not. The opposite is true.

    The above makes no sense whatsoever.

    2 + 2 = 4

    What is the opposite of this? Is it 4 = 2 + 2? Is it 2 - 2 = 4? Is it 2 + 2 =\= 4?






    How does this show anything of the kind? There are two Senators and however many Representatives the population warrants. How could it come out to anything else?
    Because that is how EC votes are determined. Meaning that form the very outset, our founding fathers decided that each state is NOT equal and that each state's value is determined by it's population. More population = more value.

    It also shows that the State is ENTITLED to senators AND representatives. Since the Senators, as per the constitution, represent the legislature, and the Representatives, as per the constitution, represent the people, that the VALUE of each State = Legislature + People.

    If they had actually felt each state was equal, there would be no house of representatives and they would have only given one or two EC votes to each state.

    they didn't believe every state was equal, because they made SURE to give more weight to the more populated states.

  5. #185
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    OK. You're talking about the EC; fine, my mistake.

    But it doesn't follow that the EC delegation being equal to the number of Representatives and Senators means the Constitution regards "the States" as some kind of hybrid of its legislature AND its people. It was simply one of the many compromises meant to balance the interests of BOTH the People AND the States.

    If a Legislature wishes, it need not consult its people on the matter at ALL, and that's absolute.
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  6. #186
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The House does not represent the States. It represents the People. The American people as a whole, not the people of the States.
    The House represents the people in each state and therefore they represent that State.

    Look to the tie-breakers for the office of President when there is no candidate with a Majority. All of the representatives from a STATE will have one vote. It is not a case where every representative will have one vote, it is where representation form each STATE has one vote.


    Again, see Article II Section 1:

    and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representatives from each State having one Vote
    Representatives ALSO represent their respective state. That is clear in the wording.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-23-09 at 01:33 PM.

  7. #187
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The House does not represent the States. It represents the People. The American people as a whole, not the people of the States.
    Yeah, well, you see....the Representatives sent to DC from California are SUPPOSED TO (but don't) represent the interests of Californians. Ditto that for the two clod senatorettes we're saddled with.

    They don't, because almost all of them are interested in playing national politics and advancing their parties. Since the California contingent is mostly Dumbocrats, that means the California contingent sees no problem with the people of California paying more in federal taxes than the state recieves back in federal spending.

    In theory, however, the congressmen are supposed to represent their district, and they're not supposed to be overly concerned with making some other congressman's constituents joyful.

    The House is supposed to be a contentious place in which all sides are working to promote their constituents' interests. It's morphed into a place where they promote their own interests.

  8. #188
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    OK. You're talking about the EC; fine, my mistake.

    But it doesn't follow that the EC delegation being equal to the number of Representatives and Senators means the Constitution regards "the States" as some kind of hybrid of its legislature AND its people. It was simply one of the many compromises meant to balance the interests of BOTH the People AND the States.

    If a Legislature wishes, it need not consult its people on the matter at ALL, and that's absolute.
    Yes. This alone negates any argument that the people carry any weight in the election of the President.

  9. #189
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The House represents the people in each state and therefore they represent that State.
    No... the people and the states are seperate legal/political entities/concepts.
    Thus, you cannot reach the above conclusion.

  10. #190
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    Re: Amendment to get rid of the Electoral College?

    They don't. That is the ONLY instance, and an unlikely one, where the Representatives of the State act as an organ of the State, and note that what it does is make each State equal -- so it actually makes the State interest supreme OVER the People.

    Note, too, that the State exercises NO authority over the Representatives FROM that state. None.

    (Nor the Senators, anymore, but that's a different issue.)
    Last edited by Harshaw; 07-23-09 at 01:38 PM.
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