View Poll Results: Is Hate a Choice?

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  • Hate is a choice - a person chooses to hate

    29 63.04%
  • Hate is not a choice - hateful people are unconscious to their own behaviour

    6 13.04%
  • Hateful people have a mental illness

    4 8.70%
  • Hateful people have given up on themselves and no longer care if they are decent people or not

    3 6.52%
  • Hateful people deserve our compassion because they're in such bad shape as human beings

    5 10.87%
  • Other

    16 34.78%
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Thread: Is hate a Choice?

  1. #81
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Dr Robert Hare, considered an expert, has studied psychopaths for 35 years and says their brains are wired differently and there is alot of evidence that they are born and not made.

    I could put in some links if you'd like.

    Here's one:
    Psychopaths Among Us, by Robert Hercz
    I have read and heard of stories where hardened, violent criminals have later turned their boat around, and have gone into the community later on to lead good lives and help others. People that have "learned" something of themselves, of how they had behaved, and have redeemed themselves in some profound way.

    If these people's brains were wired differently and they were born and not made, as you say, how is it that some of these people who easily fit the criteria for your "psychopath", acually do turn their lives around?

    I prefer to look at "individuals" - one by one - rather than clump a whole lot of people with the label "psychopath".

    There is an interesting underlying question here. Is the goodness of the human spirit, which I think resides in every human being - no matter how truncated or deeply buried it is - is it able to be redeemed or not?

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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Also, there are some humans who, through their actions, have deprived themselves of the right to breathe air and wear skin, and I have no remorse for them being executed, militarily or otherwise. If we have strong evidence of their guilt, I have no problems with them being assassinated.

  3. #83
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    Is the goodness of the human spirit, which I think resides in every human being - no matter how truncated or deeply buried it is - is it able to be redeemed or not?
    There are some humans that show through their actions that we simply cannot take the risk that they will successfully redeem themselves. The risk that they will do harm to someone else outweighs their rights to try and reclaim their place amongst the rest of the humans. Sorry to be so cut and dried, but I'm not willing to risk the deaths of innocents in the hope that a mass murderer can change.

    It largely depends, for me at least, on the seriousness of what they've done. For instance, I mentioned the boy that I worked with that was an accessory to a double homicide. I would not support the young man who committed the double homicide being released from prison under any conditions, no matter how "redeemed" he claims to be. He went into an apartment and killed two people over a set of rims, in front of one of the victim's children. I don't think that's redeemable. Maybe there is some fragment of good buried deep inside him, but given his actions to date, it isn't worth the risk.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 07-21-09 at 08:04 PM.

  4. #84
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    I have read and heard of stories where hardened, violent criminals have later turned their boat around, and have gone into the community later on to lead good lives and help others. People that have "learned" something of themselves, of how they had behaved, and have redeemed themselves in some profound way.

    If these people's brains were wired differently and they were born and not made, as you say, how is it that some of these people who easily fit the criteria for your "psychopath", actually do turn their lives around?

    I prefer to look at "individuals" - one by one - rather than clump a whole lot of people with the label "psychopath".

    There is an interesting underlying question here. Is the goodness of the human spirit, which I think resides in every human being - no matter how truncated or deeply buried it is - is it able to be redeemed or not?
    As one who wants to believe in that "human spirit", but who sees all the events in the world happening...

    I hope so, but think that our "psyche-tech", if you will, is not at a high enough level to fix all the mental issues which exist out there at this time.

    As such, there are some persons who simply cannot be allowed back into society, IMO.
    Last edited by The Mark; 07-21-09 at 08:03 PM.
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    I have read and heard of stories where hardened, violent criminals have later turned their boat around, and have gone into the community later on to lead good lives and help others. People that have "learned" something of themselves, of how they had behaved, and have redeemed themselves in some profound way.

    If these people's brains were wired differently and they were born and not made, as you say, how is it that some of these people who easily fit the criteria for your "psychopath", acually do turn their lives around?

    I prefer to look at "individuals" - one by one - rather than clump a whole lot of people with the label "psychopath".

    There is an interesting underlying question here. Is the goodness of the human spirit, which I think resides in every human being - no matter how truncated or deeply buried it is - is it able to be redeemed or not?
    We share similar values. I draw the line at psychopaths. They are irredeemable in this life.

  6. #86
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    If these people's brains were wired differently and they were born and not made, as you say, how is it that some of these people who easily fit the criteria for your "psychopath", acually do turn their lives around?
    They rarely, if ever, actually turn themselves around. Not all hardened criminals are psychopaths. A majority of them are, but not all of them.


    I'd be willing to bet that nearly the VAST majority of those who actually do turn themselves around would not qualify as psychopaths according to the criteria on Hare's PCL-R.

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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    They rarely, if ever, actually turn themselves around. Not all hardened criminals are psychopaths. A majority of them are, but not all of them.


    I'd be willing to bet that nearly the VAST majority of those who actually do turn themselves around would not qualify as psychopaths according to the criteria on Hare's PCL-R.
    Exactly. Psychopaths use therapy to become more cunning and skilled at manipulating.

    I don't know that the vast majority of the prison population are psychopaths. They are estimated to be imprisoned criminals at a smaller percentage than more than half.

    Many of them do not become criminnals and walk among us.

    Theodore Milton and Dr Robert Hare say the psychopath has antisocial traits but they are coupled with and enhanced by callousness, ruthlessness, extreme lack of empathy, deficient impulse control, deceitfulness, and sadism.

    Like narcissists, psychopaths lack empathy and regard other people as mere instruments of gratification and utility or as objects to be manipulated. Psychopaths and narcissists have no problem to grasp ideas and to formulate choices, needs, preferences, courses of action, and priorities. But they are shocked when other people do the very same.

    Most people accept that others have rights and obligations. The psychopath rejects this quid pro quo. As far as he is concerned, only might is right. People have no rights and he, the psychopath, has no obligations that derive from the "social contract". The psychopath holds himself to be above conventional morality and the law. The psychopath cannot delay gratification. He wants everything and wants it now. His whims, urges, catering to his needs, and the satisfaction of his drives take precedence over the needs, preferences, and emotions of even his nearest and dearest.

    Consequently, psychopaths feel no remorse when they hurt or defraud others. They don't possess even the most rudimentary conscience. They rationalize their (often criminal) behavior and intellectualize it.

    They are chameleons and compulsive liars.


    Read more: The Psychopath Antisocial: Devoid of Empathy | Suite101.com
    Last edited by windovervocalcords; 07-21-09 at 11:09 PM.

  8. #88
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    It's interesting that some get through that "taught hatred" to go over to the other side, while some others seem to remain in a state of "hating" and do not seem to get past it. Unlike having chosen it, it seems more like something they get "stuck" in.
    Sebastian Moore a Christian monk believes the origin of sin is not feeling good about ourselves. He believes that we are all born without sin but at some point the way we are treated makes us not feel good about ourselves. When we do not feel good about ourselves we do not act so well, so I would say the origin of hate is not feeling good about ourselves. The extent to which we move on or get stuck would depend on whether we have support around to heal us.

    I do not believe hate itself is an emotion. I believe it is more an attitude. Anger is a totally normal and needed emotion for self defense. However hate has the objective of revenge. It is therfore not an emotion but an attitude coming from thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    For most of us hate is a choice.

    Now, that said, what about psychopaths who have no conscience and are born not made?

    They behave hatefully. Do they really have choice.
    Psychopaths are not born this way. Psychopaths are incapable of empathy. This comes about because they have lost their ability to feel due to having been treated most cruelly. Psychopaths can be healed. A very gifted psychiatrist did this is a British prison. He worked with the most cruel psychopaths. He worked with them being the responsible parent they had never had and took them back through the most horrendous cruelty they had experienced. After this everyone, absolutely everyone noticed that these people began to have the one thing a psychopath can never have - warmth towards others and when you have warmth towards others you feel for others. When you feel for others you cannot harm them in the way psychopaths do so they were no longer psychopaths. (unfortunately this work was stopped throught lack of funding )

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    First, It seems that generalized hatred towards a group is always being viewed as a bad thing. I don't think that is the case.

    For example, I HATE pedophiles. I despise them. If I could, I would personally beat the crap out of each and every one of them if I could.

    I don't think there is anything wrong with my hatred of these people.

    I also don't think my hatred is because of an arbitrary distinction.

    And that's the issue.

    Hating an entire group of people for arbitrary reasons, such as race religion, gender, non-victimizing lifestyle choices, etc. is wrong, IMO.

    Hating a group of people for specific reasons, such as for behaviors they engage in that harm others, is not necessarily wrong.

    I hate lots of groups of people. I don't hate for arbitrary reasons though.

    In fact, I would say that EVERYBODY hates some group of people. I think it's totally natural.

    I think that bigotry stems form this natural inclination to hate abhorrent behaviors because bigots ignorantly apply abhorrent behaviors to a group based on arbitrary distinctions. They overgeneralize behaviors present in a subgroup to the main group because of arbitrary similarities between the subgroup and the main group.

    Hatred itself is not bad, but bigotry is. Bigotry is a product of a combination of natural emotions and ignorance. It is not necessarily a "choice" because the ignorance is the primary cause. If it is willful ignorance, then it is clearly a choice. If it is ignorance bred from inexperience or teaching, it isn't necessarily a choice.
    Hating the behaviour is one thing but hating the person even if that person is a pedophile is in my opinion simply hate - justified hate maybe but hatred plain and simple. No different from other forms of hate.

    We can choose to hate or we can choose to be there and heal each other - not to say that we are not all human and through our own life experiences may not feel hate at some time but in my opinion hatred of another human is always a failing and a failing in my opinion which is learned through our life's experience.

    To continue to hold onto our hate when we realise it has been learned and can be changed is however a choice.

    Hatred limits us and keeps us stuck. Forgivesness heals the person who forgives.

    Edit: actually the choice or not choice is a difficult one. With the illustration of the psychopaths we can see that people often or indeed usually need their own pain healed to be able to let go of their hate. Possibly understanding can make a big difference but for a lot of people love and healing from others is also needed. However hate limits us and so is never a healthy attitude imo. Hatred of a behaviour or activity is fine because the way forward then is to work on healing and changing it but of the person it is never ok imo because then the attitude then is to want to harm the person.
    Last edited by alexa; 07-22-09 at 12:40 AM.

  9. #89
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Sebastian Moore a Christian monk believes the origin of sin is not feeling good about ourselves. He believes that we are all born without sin but at some point the way we are treated makes us not feel good about ourselves. When we do not feel good about ourselves we do not act so well, so I would say the origin of hate is not feeling good about ourselves. The extent to which we move on or get stuck would depend on whether we have support around to heal us.

    I do not believe hate itself is an emotion. I believe it is more an attitude. Anger is a totally normal and needed emotion for self defense. However hate has the objective of revenge. It is therfore not an emotion but an attitude coming from thought.


    Psychopaths are not born this way. Psychopaths are incapable of empathy. This comes about because they have lost their ability to feel due to having been treated most cruelly. Psychopaths can be healed. A very gifted psychiatrist did this is a British prison. He worked with the most cruel psychopaths. He worked with them being the responsible parent they had never had and took them back through the most horrendous cruelty they had experienced. After this everyone, absolutely everyone noticed that these people began to have the one thing a psychopath can never have - warmth towards others and when you have warmth towards others you feel for others. When you feel for others you cannot harm them in the way psychopaths do so they were no longer psychopaths. (unfortunately this work was stopped throught lack of funding )



    Hating the behaviour is one thing but hating the person even if that person is a pedophile is in my opinion simply hate - justified hate maybe but hatred plain and simple. No different from other forms of hate.

    We can choose to hate or we can choose to be there and heal each other - not to say that we are not all human and through our own life experiences may not feel hate at some time but in my opinion hatred of another human is always a failing and a failing in my opinion which is learned through our life's experience.

    To continue to hold onto our hate when we realise it has been learned and can be changed is however a choice.

    Hatred limits us and keeps us stuck. Forgivesness heals the person who forgives.

    Edit: actually the choice or not choice is a difficult one. With the illustration of the psychopaths we can see that people often or indeed usually need their own pain healed to be able to let go of their hate. Possibly understanding can make a big difference but for a lot of people love and healing from others is also needed. However hate limits us and so is never a healthy attitude imo. Hatred of a behaviour or activity is fine because the way forward then is to work on healing and changing it but of the person it is never ok imo because then the attitude then is to want to harm the person.
    Psychopaths are born and not made. Hate is a poison of the mind. It is emotion. It is the easiest emotioni to recognize because it is so physical.
    Hate is in the same family as anger, just more extreme. Psychopaths lie with ease and are very charming. John Wayne Gacy is a famous psychopath. Even after a piece of journalism proved his credentials for holding an important role in his community weere bogus, the community supported him even after it was proved that he lied. Gacy predicted they would support him because he had charmed them.

    Psychopaths make up 1% of the general population, but 25% of the prison population, according to Dr. Hare. "Violence is not uncommon among offender populations, but psychopaths still manage to stand out," he says. "They commit more than twice as many violent and aggressive acts, both in and out of prison, as do other criminals."

    1. Glibness/superficial charm

    2. Grandiose sense of self-worth

    3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom

    4. Pathological lying

    5. Conning/manipulative

    6. Lack of remorse or guilt

    7. Shallow affect

    8. Callous/lack of empathy

    9. Parasitic lifestyle

    10. Poor behavioural controls

    11. Promiscuous sexual behaviour

    12. Early behaviour problems

    13. Lack of realistic, long-term plans

    14. Impulsivity

    15. Irresponsibility

    16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

    17. Many short-term relationships

    18. Juvenile delinquency

    19. Revocation of conditional release

    20. Criminal versatility

    21. Narcissism
    The checklist is from the book; WITHOUT CONCIENCE by Robert D Hare, PHD.







    Please link to the man who cures psychopaths please.
    Last edited by windovervocalcords; 07-22-09 at 08:17 AM.

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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    I think that psychopathy tends to be represented at inordinately high levels amongst convicted sex offenders. I've worked with teenaged sex offenders who were responsible for multiple offenses against young children, and they were extremely adept at playing "the game" of showing that they were changed. And yet, I'm not sure, longterm, that they were. In fact, I suspect they weren't.

    It's weird because I've worked with a ton of convicted offenders (for relatively serious offenses, including homicide), and had no difficulty believing that they could reform (though it is difficult). But there are a handful of young adults that I've dealt with that really believed were simply too dangerous to be allowed outside of prison. Almost all of them were ultimately convicted of murder, but there was something about them, even prior to the conviction, that led me to believe that they were very dangerous.

    Just a gut feeling. I would meet with them, and then go back to my office, and think, "that kid is going to kill someone." I was never wrong.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 07-22-09 at 08:58 AM.

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