View Poll Results: Is Hate a Choice?

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  • Hate is a choice - a person chooses to hate

    29 63.04%
  • Hate is not a choice - hateful people are unconscious to their own behaviour

    6 13.04%
  • Hateful people have a mental illness

    4 8.70%
  • Hateful people have given up on themselves and no longer care if they are decent people or not

    3 6.52%
  • Hateful people deserve our compassion because they're in such bad shape as human beings

    5 10.87%
  • Other

    16 34.78%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Is hate a Choice?

  1. #141
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Since you are not willing to read his work we have nothing further to discuss.
    There you go again, getting on your high horse. Have you as yet read the link I provided?
    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    I'm keeping an open mind because the answer is not clear yet.
    Nice meeting you though.
    A an open mind, this is something new.
    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    I have included numerous links to Robert Hare research and articles. Here is one:
    Fraud Magazine Cover Article - July-August 2008
    and here is another;
    A Reporter at Large: Suffering Souls : The New Yorker

    Here is another worth taking a look at for any interested poster;
    So says a new study carried out by Dr. Essi Viding of Kings College, London. Dr. Viding carried out his research using twins and found that psychopathic tendencies are highly heritable.
    New research on the origins of antisocial behaviour, published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, suggests that early-onset antisocial behaviour in children with psychopathic tendencies is largely inherited.

    The findings are the result of extensive research funded by the Medical Research Council, the Department of Health and the Home Office, and carried out by Dr. Essi Viding of the MRC Social, Genetic and Developmental Psychiatry Centre, within the Institute of Psychiatry, King's College London.

    Past research has shown that children with early-onset antisocial behaviour show problem behaviours for a variety of different reasons. One warning sign of vulnerability for antisocial behaviour is psychopathic tendencies, i.e. lack of empathy and remorse. Dr Viding's research looked into the factors that contribute to antisocial behaviour in children with and without psychopathic tendencies. By studying sets of 7-year-old twins, Dr. Viding and her colleagues were able to pinpoint to what extent antisocial behaviour in these two groups was caused by genetic and/or environmental risk factors.

    Mangan's: Psychopaths Born, Not Made
    I haven't had time to read all the threads. When I asked for a link you didn't provide one.

    I wanted to know on what evidence people were deciding to come to the conclusion that people were born psychopaths. It is a very dangerous decision to come to as it could result in treating children as something 'evil'. It gives a sort of conception of the child not dissimilar to the ideas which were about wher eugenics was in it's hey day - that led to all sorts of anti social behaviour by the rest of society towards some people within society including sterialising and at it's worst the Nazi 'final solution'

    To come to such a decision would demand proof.

    As you were unable or unwilling yourself to say on what criteria people were coming to this decision I looked at your last link.

    Study of 7 year olds is absolutely no evidence that any behaviour within them is genetic. None whatsoever. The first three years of life are the most important in determing how people will develop and the younger the baby is the more important it is how that child is treated. The child will not remember what happened at that time but it is during this time that the child's image of the world is created.

    People come up with theories - and it seems this concept of people being born psychopathic is simply that, based on their own life view including their own state of consciousness.

    Dr Bob Johnson was clearly a very gifted psychiatrist and due to that he was able to form relationships with these psychopaths and gain their trust. Not everyone could have done that. I would imagine the reason he managed it was because of the quality of his own consciousness.

    Jung recognised that in any therapeutic situation the quality of the relationship between therapist and client was crucial for the outcome and it is the therapist who is responsible for creating that quality.

    Dr Bob Johnson had success. It certainly is not proved that people are genetically born that way but it has been shown that they can be healed. If it were genetic this would be impossible.

    As Gwendolin has said this is not the topic of the thread - maybe at some furure time you will want to as she said make a thread on this subject. I guess if you want to talk more that is what to do.

    I am though glad to hear you have become open on the subject.

  2. #142
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    Re: Is Hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post
    I thought I'd post a couple of quite divergent ideas / premises around the subject / area of hate.

    The first, I think, is quite an interesting explanation / perspective of a look into the mind of a racist.

    The second is quite a polemic piece on the question of "choice" and of its implications:


    Interview with Ruth Williams and Andrew Samuels:

    On Racism


    RW: In Chapter 10 * you say that "racists actually want to eliminate themselves". I didn't understand that. What do you mean by that?

    AS: This came out of one of those political clinics. I have developed a method of finding out people's private reactions to political issues by encouraging them to imagine themselves as if they were therapists and to regard the political issue - racism in this case - as a client. The images that came up which were spontaneous although there was a group associative process of course were very much of completely empty landscapes, as if the racist does not want anyone to exist at all. So there was a great deal of what you might call self-loathing and self-annihilation involved in racism which I had not expected to find. And the audience people from groups concerned with ethnic minorities (I was very daunted because of course I'm not a specialist in anything) - they joined in on this and were quite shocked because their way of thinking was that the racist wants his country back, or he wants to own the land, repopulate it with his own type, not being able to cope with difference. So it was very revealing to see that the racist was actually totally self-annihilating as well.

    RW: I don't quite understand that.

    AS: I don't really understand it either.

    RW: I can understand the empty landscape with no one but the person of "pure race".

    AS: That's what I would have expected. That's what I thought we might find. But no. No one at all. Polar. Tundra. Nobody. Nobody. I can't explain it. We couldn't. But what it lead to was a very deep and fascinating discussion about racism that felt a bit new.


    * Politics on the Couch: Citizenship and the Internal Life - Andrew Samuels
    No surprise at all.


    ***
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendoline View Post

    Isaac Beshevis Singer in an interview for Parabola Magazine.

    Singer remarks:

    I would say that behind all my ideas... is the freedom of choice. I feel that the freedom of choice is the very essence of life. We have one great gift from God and this is to choose. And we always indulge in choosing. If we pay attention to one thing, we have chosen to pay attention to it. If we love somebody, we have chosen this person for love. This is in every act of humanity. To me, God is freedom. And nature, to me, is necessity... When people leave free choice, the demons appear. The demons are in a way the dark side of nature which we choose. If we stop completely believing in our power [of choice], then other powers can come upon us. In other words, the demon to me is a negative side of free choice. Demons come when people resign themselves... when people say to themselves, "I'm not going to make any choices anymore. I will just let the powers work for themselves." It is then that the demon is bound to appear. The danger is always there - like a medical doctor who will tell you that the microbes are always there in your mouth and in your stomach, and if you become weak, they begin to multiply and become strong... Just as we are medically surrounded by dangerous microbes, so our spirit has always to fight melancholy and disbelief and viciousness and cruelty and all kinds of things.
    I think that this moves over to the spiritual - that is that as we become able to be more fully the author of our own destiny, we become more in touch with our authenticty. Yes, self empowerment is the way out. You do not need to use the word God. You could say your authenticity, your genuiness, the person you were born to be, your potential.

    I think it is impossible for any of us to survive childhood without some damage, even those of us who are born to the most loving people but freedom of choice which requires self empowerment is the way out. Genuine self empowerment not the false empowment of the person who is so scared they have a need to control others. Being in control of ourselves but allowing others freedom to also be in control of themselves.

    How true that when we let go of that genuine responsibility for ouselves, when we for whatever reason are unable to make our own free choices, we leave ourselves open to other forces.

    Of course some people, indeed I suspect many people, perhaps even most of us are damaged so much that we need some help to get our control back. Your first illustration of the racists illustrates that. I accept that this was role play but imagining it was indeed a therapeutic situation - they were not conscious at first of what was the reason for their thoughts. Once they became conscious and only once they became conscious they were in a position to heal and have again free choice, becoming the authors of their own lives.

    Demons may be another word that makes people think this is just Christian terminology or in some way superstition, but what is said is true. To the extent we do not take ownership of our lives we are at the mercy of outside forces. To the extent we are not in touch with ourselves, we lack genuine self empowerment.

    I think that self empowerment is a process. Non of us escapes childhood with no harm. It is a road with blocks on the way which we need to address and heal - when all is well helping each other along the road - when all is not well, becoming vulnerable to outside forces.

    so I believe hate is learned and we forget why we are hating so choose objects that seem justifable to hate but when we heal, we lose the self loathing you brought up in your first quote and do not need to hate.

  3. #143
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanitas View Post
    A lot of people are really blinded by hatred. I think that hatred can be a choice, but in many cases it isn't, where someone does or says something that they normally wouldn't do thinking clearly, and then regret it.


    People are more often blinded by love.... This does not say much.


    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

  4. #144
    Walk with me in hell.
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Enjoy it then. If getting pleasure comes from the misfortune of others, enjoy it. Exactly what kind of suffering of others do you most get off on?
    The kind that is deserved. But I already said that.

    Lack of empathy is by definition one of the signs of psychopathy. Glibness, superficial charm and deceit are others.
    Not sure how this applies to me, but I appreciate the information.

    I find the idea of enjoying the suffering of others repulsive; that's just my opinon. I don't enjoy the misfortune of others, not even my enemies.
    Depends on who is suffering and why. And I don't have enemies, so that part doesn't apply.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

  5. #145
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Schadenfreude is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. Researchers have found that people with low self-esteem are more likely to feel schadenfreude than are people who have high self-esteem.

    Schadenfreude - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I wouldn't say my esteem is low. In fact, I'd say it was above average.

  6. #146
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithering Rainbow View Post
    Good point! I'll agree there is a distinct difference. I don't see Vick losing everything as misfortune, though. It was simple cause and effect. Losing your status after torturing dogs isn't misfortune- it's just the way it goes if you are a criminal and you get caught. Losing your fortune because a hurricane hits your house or something would be a whole other situation.
    Either way would have worked for me. But a hurricane would not have cost him much. Jail cost him his entire life. He has a chance to earn it back and I wish him well there. There is something to be said about turning one's life around. But as for his past he got what he had coming to him.
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by windovervocalcords View Post
    Enjoy it then. If getting pleasure comes from the misfortune of others, enjoy it. Exactly what kind of suffering of others do you most get off on?
    The well-deserved.

    Lack of empathy is by definition one of the signs of psychopathy. Glibness, superficial charm and deceit are others.
    Really. Are you accusing Stekim of being a psychopath?

    find the idea of enjoying the suffering of others repulsive; that's just my opinon. I don't enjoy the misfortune of others, not even my enemies.
    Not all of us can hold to your superior values.

  8. #148
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I wouldn't say my esteem is low. In fact, I'd say it was above average.
    but do you exhibit schadenfreude?

    If not, then any issues as far as self esteem one way or the other are pretty irrelevant.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  9. #149
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Hate is just another form of love. For example, many hate the Good Reverend's awesomeness because they love him so much....


    I simply can't help it.....


    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

  10. #150
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    Re: Is hate a Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Really. Are you accusing Stekim of being a psychopath?
    The issue with that being it would also make you a psychopath because we are the same person. But for me personally, I can't say I care if I am or I'm not. Whatever.
    Wow. Am I awesome or what?

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