View Poll Results: What's next for the United States?

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  • More rigorous and extensive manned exploration of moon.

    20 52.63%
  • Permanent lunar colonies

    17 44.74%
  • Construction of "O'Neill" habitats.

    6 15.79%
  • Mars exploration with goal of colonization.

    21 55.26%
  • Asteroidal/comet exploitation?

    11 28.95%
  • Other

    10 26.32%
  • Nothing. Abandon space to the robots.

    7 18.42%
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Thread: Space Goals For America: What Next?

  1. #81
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Did the Pilgrims make the taxpayers back home foot the bill? And were they the first ones to do what they did? No?
    Most explorers were chartered with tax money, yes.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Even if all that was zero-sum, either or, can-only-do-one-or-the-other (which it isn't)
    It is a zero-sum in terms of government spending. Sure, we can spend SOME money to go to Mars and SOME money on those other things...or we can spend ALL the money on those other things to actually make them better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    sending people to Mars.
    Why? All the things I listed have tangible benefits that will actually make the world a better place. Sending people to Mars does not.
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  3. #83
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Most explorers were chartered with tax money, yes.
    The Pilgrims were not explorers, and explorers were claiming land for their home government in exchange for the tax money. I doubt NASA is going to claim that Mars is the property of the United States the minute we land there. Furthermore, the European empires did not have little robots that could have explored the New World much more cheaply and efficiently than humans.
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  4. #84
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It is a zero-sum in terms of government spending. Sure, we can spend SOME money to go to Mars and SOME money on those other things...or we can spend ALL the money on those other things to actually make them better.
    And there's no guarantee that it will, is there?


    Why? All the things I listed have tangible benefits that will actually make the world a better place. Sending people to Mars does not.
    And you keep objecting to my saying you lack vision.
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  5. #85
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And there's no guarantee that it will, is there?
    Nope. There's no guarantee that spending more money to, say, eradicate malaria will actually translate to the world being a better place. But I can guarantee you that sending some people to Mars, planting a flag, and coming back will NOT translate to the world being a better place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    And you keep objecting to my saying you lack vision.
    Again, WHO lacks vision here? You object to spending money (or at least the money that you'd divert toward Mars) on all of those things I listed because "there's no guarantee" that they'll work...and *I* lack vision?
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  6. #86
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The Pilgrims were not explorers, and explorers were claiming land for their home government in exchange for the tax money. I doubt NASA is going to claim that Mars is the property of the United States the minute we land there.
    We will certainly exploit what we find.


    Furthermore, the European empires did not have little robots that could have explored the New World much more cheaply and efficiently than humans.
    Yeah. Robots. If you don't intrinsically get the tangible benefits of footprints on the surface, then you just aren't going to. Like I said, not everyone does.
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  7. #87
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    We will certainly exploit what we find.




    Yeah. Robots. If you don't intrinsically get the tangible benefits of footprints on the surface, then you just aren't going to. Like I said, not everyone does.
    And if you don't intrinsically understand that footprints on the surface of Mars are NOT worth upwards of a trillion dollars - and certainly are not more important to the advancement of humanity than all the other goals I mentioned - then you just aren't going to. Like I said, not everyone does.

    Too bad you lack vision.
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Nope. There's no guarantee that spending more money to, say, eradicate malaria will actually translate to the world being a better place. But I can guarantee you that sending some people to Mars, planting a flag, and coming back will NOT translate to the world being a better place.
    This is a typical failure of imagination. One only needs to look at the offshoots of the space program already to see how demonstrably, palpably, woefully wrong that is.

    Some things don't get invented simply because there's no reason to invent them. It's only after they've been invented for a purpose that lots more applications become apparent, and THAT'S when it trickles into everyday life.



    Again, WHO lacks vision here? You object to spending money (or at least the money that you'd divert toward Mars) on all of those things I listed because "there's no guarantee" that they'll work...and *I* lack vision?
    No, I don't. I was using your own argument against you. Jeez.
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And if you don't intrinsically understand that footprints on the surface of Mars are NOT worth upwards of a trillion dollars - and certainly are not more important to the advancement of humanity than all the other goals I mentioned - then you just aren't going to. Like I said, not everyone does.

    Too bad you lack vision.
    If I objected to any of that other stuff, then you might have a whisper of an argument.
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    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And if you don't intrinsically understand that footprints on the surface of Mars are NOT worth upwards of a trillion dollars - and certainly are not more important to the advancement of humanity than all the other goals I mentioned - then you just aren't going to. Like I said, not everyone does.

    Too bad you lack vision.
    Any society that develops robotics to the point where robots are replacing humans on thte frontiers is a society that will be using those machines to be their slaves at home. Why deal with a nosy maid when a robot will do everything you want it to without having an opinion?

    Societies that rely on slave labor decay and die.

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