View Poll Results: What's next for the United States?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • More rigorous and extensive manned exploration of moon.

    20 52.63%
  • Permanent lunar colonies

    17 44.74%
  • Construction of "O'Neill" habitats.

    6 15.79%
  • Mars exploration with goal of colonization.

    21 55.26%
  • Asteroidal/comet exploitation?

    11 28.95%
  • Other

    10 26.32%
  • Nothing. Abandon space to the robots.

    7 18.42%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 108

Thread: Space Goals For America: What Next?

  1. #71
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    People who get caught up in the idea that it MUST serve some kind of scientific purpose or there's no reason to go drive me nuts. The achievement itself is a worthy human goal, with potential benefits that we can't even imagine yet. Worry about applications later. There is no question the bounty of developments will give us things we've never even thought about.
    Sure, the achievement itself is a worthy human goal. Why does that mean we can't wait until the technology is actually economically feasible before we commit to it? What's so special about right now? Mars isn't going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    The "what good will it serve? We've got other fish to fry, and besides, we can do this, this, and this already" mentality is the same one which has held back progress throughout history.
    Wrong. Every government dollar spent on a trip to Mars is one less government dollar that can be spent on something that actually helps society here on earth. Which is really holding back progress - staying home or wasting upwards of a trillion dollars on a trip to Mars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Looking at things "rationally," there was no reason for man to fly; transportation was well-covered. There was no reason for Lindbergh to fly to Europe; trans-Atlantic travel was fully-perfected.

    There was no reason for the automobile. There was no "real reason" for a lot of things we have today, but thankfully, people did them anyway.
    A few distinctions:

    There WERE reasons for all of those things, unlike going to Mars. Even at the time, people could recognize the utility of airplanes and automobiles.

    None of those things cost taxpayers a trillion dollars.

    None of those things were done decades before they were economically practical. If the ancient Romans had decided that instead of building aqueducts, they were going to build a flying machine that could cross the ocean, they would've been wasting their money. Societies typically don't want to bite off more than they can chew, and for good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    The "wait, wait, wait" mentality isn't very imaginative and will get us nowhere. It's a bean-counter approach preferred by mousy guys in sweater vests. Might be "practical," but it's stifling. And boring. And stagnating.
    Sorry, but not being boring isn't a good enough reason to spend an unimaginable amount of taxpayer money when there ARE things the money could be spent on that WILL help people.


    I think that most of the people criticizing the "wait, wait, wait" mentality are just trying to hide their own selfish desire: THEY have always thought about going to Mars, and want to see it happen in their lifetime regardless of the costs to the public.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-27-09 at 12:28 AM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  2. #72
    Professor
    OxymoronP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Heart in Brooklyn, body South of Dixie
    Last Seen
    08-23-10 @ 09:38 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    2,175

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Other find actual use in Space exploration like neat resources.


    THE GREATEST FREEDOM IS THE FREEDOM TO OPPRESS OTHERS

  3. #73
    Neoconservative RINO/DINO
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:25 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    22,882

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    That's the great thing about this country. We know we want more exploration in space like the glory days, but we cannot agree on what to actually try to accomplish.
    ​"No religion is true, but some religion, any religion, is politically necessary. Law and morality are insufficient for the large majority of men. Obedience to the law and to the morals are insufficient for making men happy. []Law and morality are therefore in need of being supplemented by divine rewards and punishments."

  4. #74
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 05:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    I believe that human kind's long term survival will depend upon entering space. Our world's resources will dry up eventually at the current rate, and in the long term our Sun will go super nova... so we must exit.

    That said, we have a lot of time to consider how to do this, and now is not the time. There are more pressing matters here on Earth and I'd rather see that money get put into applicable technologies. NASA has invented a lot of useful things that have changed our lives on the planet, so I know it's not so cut and dry, but NASA could easily be converted into something more relevant to our present lives.

    I feel that the existence of NASA mostly arose from the competition with the USSR, and its continued existence is to ensure that America is "the first" with all things in space, in case a major discovery is made that could be advantageous. All the while, every launch into space sends millions of gallons of spent fuel into the atmosphere, constituting billions in tax payer dollars, all so that astronauts can study how spiders react to micro-gravity. It makes little sense to me.

    I support the installation of space telescopes for visual inspection of distant space, just as I suppose the private installation of commercial satellites for networking on Earth... most else is irrelevant to me.

  5. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Ft. Campbell, KY
    Last Seen
    12-31-14 @ 07:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    12,177

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    When have people or mankind in general gained from not pursuing exploration and scientific discovery? I'm 100% for manned space exploration and expansion into space, and I think its God awful that the US is going to retire the space scuttle before we have a replacement for it.

  6. #76
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:15 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    21,972

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sure, the achievement itself is a worthy human goal. Why does that mean we can't wait until the technology is actually economically feasible before we commit to it? What's so special about right now? Mars isn't going anywhere.
    You will always be able to make that argument.

    We should do it now because we can.


    Wrong. Every government dollar spent on a trip to Mars is one less government dollar that can be spent on something that actually helps society here on earth. Which is really holding back progress - staying home or wasting upwards of a trillion dollars on a trip to Mars?
    What do you mean, "wrong"? You basically just said exactly what I was objecting to.

    My guess is, there will NEVER be a "right time" in your estimation. There will ALWAYS be other priorities, other "better" or "more useful" things to spend the money on. Which is exactly what I said.



    There WERE reasons for all of those things, unlike going to Mars. Even at the time, people could recognize the utility of airplanes and automobiles.
    A few visionary people did. For the most part, it was dismissed as folly and fantasy and without any real benefit.


    None of those things cost taxpayers a trillion dollars.
    And who says going to Mars will cost a "trillion dollars"?


    None of those things were done decades before they were economically practical. If the ancient Romans had decided that instead of building aqueducts, they were going to build a flying machine that could cross the ocean, they would've been wasting their money. Societies typically don't want to bite off more than they can chew, and for good reason.
    The Romans frequently "bit off more they could chew" from an engineering standpoint, and that's WHY they had aqueducts in the first place.

    It's a preposterous analogy anyway (and you've been making a lot of those lately). Even by your own estimation, the technology leap is decades away, not centuries. And that's only if we put it off, like you'll perpetually insist we "must."

    Because there will always be something "more" to do, some other problem to tackle "first."


    Sorry, but not being boring isn't a good enough reason to spend an unimaginable amount of taxpayer money when there ARE things the money could be spent on that WILL help people.
    Yes, yes, yes. "Can't, can't, can't, can't, can't." "Not now, not now, not now, not now." "Wait, wait, wait, wait."

    Do you think we'd have gone to the Moon at all if this argument had prevailed? It was out there. Why, Walter Mondale tried to kill NASA quite vigorously exactly because of this.

    If we hadn't gone to the Moon, if they HAD killed the program, there's a great deal we take for granted today which we wouldn't have.


    I think that most of the people criticizing the "wait, wait, wait" mentality are just trying to hide their own selfish desire: THEY have always thought about going to Mars, and want to see it happen in their lifetime regardless of the costs to the public.
    It's about the advancement of humankind, rather than its stagnation. It's about saying we've "waited" long enough. It's been 40 years since the Moon landings; it's time to move on. The only reasons to wait are pencil-pushing, bean-counting, unimaginative, unadventurous, pessimistic worry-warts.

    But, if you don't have the vision, you don't have it. Not everyone does. I guess the world needs playground minders, too.
    2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
    2009-2016: Dissent is the highest form of racism.
    2017-? (Probably): Dissent is the highest form of misogyny.

  7. #77
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    You will always be able to make that argument.

    We should do it now because we can.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    What do you mean, "wrong"? You basically just said exactly what I was objecting to.

    My guess is, there will NEVER be a "right time" in your estimation. There will ALWAYS be other priorities, other "better" or "more useful" things to spend the money on. Which is exactly what I said.
    Possibly. I don't have a crystal ball to know what future problems the world might have to deal with. But at the present time this certainly is not a very high priority on the list of things we could spend money on, which could improve the world.

    Eventually humans will colonize space (if we don't destroy ourselves first). But there's no reason it has to be done right now, or in 20 years, or even in a hundred years, if there are more pressing problems. The main reason you want to do it now is because you want to see it happen in your lifetime...which is incredibly selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    A few visionary people did. For the most part, it was dismissed as folly and fantasy and without any real benefit.
    People have wanted flying machines for millennia. And vehicles that can travel much faster than a horse would be quite obviously useful to anyone at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    And who says going to Mars will cost a "trillion dollars"?
    It's just a common estimate that I've heard, I don't know how accurate it actually is. Keep in mind that putting people on the moon cost about $30 billion...which is about $180 billion in today's terms.

    If we extrapolate from that how much it would cost to go to Mars, it would be at least several times as much. So a trillion seems like a reasonable estimate. But even if the actual price tag is $700-800 billion, my point still stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    The Romans frequently "bit off more they could chew" from an engineering standpoint, and that's WHY they had aqueducts in the first place.

    It's a preposterous analogy anyway (and you've been making a lot of those lately). Even by your own estimation, the technology leap is decades away, not centuries. And that's only if we put it off, like you'll perpetually insist we "must."
    Well then we can do it in a few decades, not centuries.

    And what makes you think I'll perpetually insist that we must wait? Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball. I don't know how many of the problems currently facing the world will be solved in a few decades, nor do I have more than rough estimates on how long it will take us to develop mature nanotechnology which will make space exploration much cheaper/easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Because there will always be something "more" to do, some other problem to tackle "first."
    So what? If there's always some other pressing problem, there's always some other pressing problem. You have to prioritize. There is no law that says we have to go to Mars right now, or even this century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    Yes, yes, yes. "Can't, can't, can't, can't, can't." "Not now, not now, not now, not now." "Wait, wait, wait, wait."

    Do you think we'd have gone to the Moon at all if this argument had prevailed? It was out there. Why, Walter Mondale tried to kill NASA quite vigorously exactly because of this.
    Going to the Moon was a waste of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    If we hadn't gone to the Moon, if they HAD killed the program, there's a great deal we take for granted today which we wouldn't have.
    We could've gotten the same products much more cheaply through direct R&D, *without* the $180 billion price tag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw
    It's about the advancement of humankind, rather than its stagnation. It's about saying we've "waited" long enough. It's been 40 years since the Moon landings; it's time to move on. The only reasons to wait are pencil-pushing, bean-counting, unimaginative, unadventurous, pessimistic worry-warts.

    But, if you don't have the vision, you don't have it. Not everyone does. I guess the world needs playground minders, too.
    Which contributes more to the advancement of humankind - eradicating malaria, protecting our environment, educating our children, ending hunger, fighting AIDS, safeguarding nuclear material, improving access to clean drinking water...or sending a few people to Mars?

    Your infantile name-calling aside, the people lacking vision are those who want to waste unimaginable sums of money on a silly stunt instead of actually doing something to contribute to the world.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-27-09 at 12:15 PM.
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

  8. #78
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 02:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sure, the achievement itself is a worthy human goal. Why does that mean we can't wait until the technology is actually economically feasible before we commit to it? What's so special about right now? Mars isn't going anywhere.
    Yes.

    Exactly.

    100%

    Why didn't the Pilgrims wait until they could buy tickets on the Titanic to get to America? America wasn't moving away very fast.

  9. #79
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:15 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    21,972

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Eventually humans will colonize space (if we don't destroy ourselves first).
    Not if your mindset is the prevailing one.

    But there's no reason it has to be done right now, or in 20 years, or even in a hundred years, if there are more pressing problems.
    There's no reason anything ever "has" to be done, other than to do it.


    And what makes you think I'll perpetually insist that we must wait?
    Because of this:


    Going to the Moon was a waste of money.

    We could've gotten the same products much more cheaply through direct R&D, *without* the $180 billion price tag.


    Which contributes more to the advancement of humankind - eradicating malaria, protecting our environment, educating our children, ending hunger, fighting AIDS, safeguarding nuclear material, improving access to clean drinking water...or sending a few people to Mars?
    Even if all that was zero-sum, either or, can-only-do-one-or-the-other (which it isn't) . . . sending people to Mars.


    Your infantile name-calling aside, the people lacking vision are those who want to waste unimaginable sums of money on a silly stunt instead of actually doing something to contribute to the world.
    That you see it as merely a "silly stunt" illustrates the lack of vision. I'm just calling a spade a spade.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 07-27-09 at 12:26 PM.
    2001-2008: Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
    2009-2016: Dissent is the highest form of racism.
    2017-? (Probably): Dissent is the highest form of misogyny.

  10. #80
    Enemy Combatant
    Kandahar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Last Seen
    10-15-13 @ 06:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    20,688

    Re: Space Goals For America: What Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yes.

    Exactly.

    100%

    Why didn't the Pilgrims wait until they could buy tickets on the Titanic to get to America? America wasn't moving away very fast.
    Did the Pilgrims make the taxpayers back home foot the bill? And were they the first ones to do what they did? No?
    Are you coming to bed?
    I can't. This is important.
    What?
    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

Page 8 of 11 FirstFirst ... 678910 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •