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Are you willing...

Are you willing to be fined for simply living?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • No.

    Votes: 10 62.5%
  • Don't care one way or the other. IT'S HEALTH INSURENCE!!!

    Votes: 4 25.0%

  • Total voters
    16

Kal'Stang

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...to be fined, and if you don't pay the fine go to jail for simply living?

Cause this is what will happen under the Democrats verion of the bill for health care reform.

The Democrats' House version would

require every American to have health insurance or pay a fine.

•provide subsidies to help provide health insurance to households that make less than $88,000

•and create a government run health plan to compete with private insurers to drive costs down

abc News link

If you don't think that it is as serious as what I am saying here then name me even ONE type of insurence that you are required to have no matter what.
 
...to be fined, and if you don't pay the fine go to jail for simply living?

Cause this is what will happen under the Democrats verion of the bill for health care reform.



abc News link

If you don't think that it is as serious as what I am saying here then name me even ONE type of insurence that you are required to have no matter what.

You are required to have car insurance in NJ no matter what. If you do not have it and are caught, you get a variety of consequences. Here are the requirements and the consequences for NOT carrying insurance:

New Jersey Auto Insurance Laws

Drivers in New Jersey have specific auto insurance laws they must follow. In addition to the law, you also should seriously consider obtaining coverage that far exceeds your state requirements – most insurance experts argue that for complete protection, you need to carry comprehensive coverage. To remain in compliance with the law, be sure your policy meets the following standards:
Drivers have to carry three types of insurance in New Jersey: liability, personal injury and uninsured motorist.

  • Liability insurance covers the damage caused by your accident, if you’re at fault.
  • Personal injury coverage will pay for your medical expenses – whether you’re at fault or not.
  • Uninsured motorist insurance gives your protection in the event that you’re in an accident with someone who doesn’t have state-mandated insurance coverage.

New Jersey (NJ) Mandatory Auto Insurance Minimums


  • Liability: 15/30/5 = Bodily Injury Individual/Bodily Injury Total Per Accident/Property Damage
  • Other Mandatory Insurance: Personal Injury Protection, Uninsured Motorist — No-FaultState
  • Regulations Regarding Proof of auto insurance: Proof Required - If Involved In An Accident, If Stopped By Authorities When Driving
  • Penalties For Not Carrying Mandatory Insurance: First Offense = Fine of up to $1000, License Suspension of One Year, Community Service
New Jersey Auto Insurance Advice
 
You're not legally required to drive, CC. Nor is it strictly necessary for survival, though in many parts of the United States it's close.

Any legislator who suggests that health insurance should be mandatory and that citizens should be subject to civil and/or criminal penalties for not having health insurance, without actually providing health insurance to everyone who requires it, should be hauled bodily out of their offices and hanged on the front steps of the Capitol. And it is requiring a good deal of self-control to refrain from contiuing that that their entire misbegotten lineage should likewise be purged from within the membership of civilized society. There is no excuse for this kind of intolerable ignorance of the living conditions of their own citizens. **** their stupid laws and **** them.

If they want to raise taxes to pay for their healthcare plans, for government healthcare plans, I'll support them. But passing a law that mandates citizens to pay for expensive services from third-party private businesses is unacceptable. Congress has already given those corporate whores far too many free lunches and it's about goddamned time we remind them that they are allowed to take our tax money to provide services for us, not to bend us over for the people who pay the bribes necessary to get them into offoce.
 
You're not legally required to drive, CC. Nor is it strictly necessary for survival, though in many parts of the United States it's close.

That's true, however, not driving severely limits one's options, depending on where one lives. One can make this analogy: if you want to drive, you have to have insurance; if you want to have good health, you have to have insurance.

Now, don't get me wrong. I do not support a plan that requires one to be mandated to have insurance under penalty of law. However, if a government plan is instituted and someone opts out...which should be allowed, either they pay for private health care, they pay for health care out of pocket, or, if they cannot do either, the government DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SUBSIDIZE THEIR HEALTHCARE. You want to opt out, that's fine. You want to exercise your rights and liberty to not pay into the government system, good for you. You have a serious health crisis and you don't have insurance and can't afford to deal with it...TOO BAD. THAT'S personal responsibility.

Any legislator who suggests that health insurance should be mandatory and that citizens should be subject to civil and/or criminal penalties for not having health insurance, without actually providing health insurance to everyone who requires it, should be hauled bodily out of their offices and hanged on the front steps of the Capitol. And it is requiring a good deal of self-control to refrain from contiuing that that their entire misbegotten lineage should likewise be purged from within the membership of civilized society. There is no excuse for this kind of intolerable ignorance of the living conditions of their own citizens. **** their stupid laws and **** them.

If they want to raise taxes to pay for their healthcare plans, for government healthcare plans, I'll support them. But passing a law that mandates citizens to pay for expensive services from third-party private businesses is unacceptable. Congress has already given those corporate whores far too many free lunches and it's about goddamned time we remind them that they are allowed to take our tax money to provide services for us, not to bend us over for the people who pay the bribes necessary to get them into offoce.

Ummm...Kori. I would agree with you...without the violence.
 
Now, don't get me wrong. I do not support a plan that requires one to be mandated to have insurance under penalty of law. However, if a government plan is instituted and someone opts out...which should be allowed, either they pay for private health care, they pay for health care out of pocket, or, if they cannot do either, the government DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES SUBSIDIZE THEIR HEALTHCARE.

I'll agree with this so far, except I'm not certain that I agree people should be able to opt out. If they want to pay for some other form of health insurance, or some other means of receiving health care, that is by all means their prerogative... but I'm not so sure they should have any more right to opt out of the government's healthcare plan than they can opt out of paying for the public schools. Certainly, if the government plan is available and the person is refusing it, the government should not under any circumstances subsidize their care.

Ummm...Kori. I would agree with you...without the violence.

Sorry. I'm having a bad night.

edit: Having a bad night and apparently not thinking too clearly.
 
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...to be fined, and if you don't pay the fine go to jail for simply living?

Cause this is what will happen under the Democrats verion of the bill for health care reform.



abc News link

If you don't think that it is as serious as what I am saying here then name me even ONE type of insurence that you are required to have no matter what.

Are you willing to be fined for driving or owning a house? Of course those are choice-oriented, but you also have the choice of living! :rofl:
 
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I'll agree with this so far, except I'm not certain that I agree people should be able to opt out. If they want to pay for some other form of health insurance, or some other means of receiving health care, that is by all means their prerogative... but I'm not so sure they should have any more right to opt out of the government's healthcare plan than they can opt out of paying for the public schools. Certainly, if the government plan is available and the person is refusing it, the government should not under any circumstances subsidize their care.

I think the second part of your statement captured what I was referring to. I would see a government plan as an option, not as a requirement, with opting out a possibility. However, with a very affordable, or a tax-based government plan available, if one opts out and then does not purchase private health insurance, nor save enough money to handle their health care out of pocket, then they are out of luck. No government subsidies, no exceptions. Personal responsibility and all.



Sorry. I'm having a bad night.

edit: Having a bad night and apparently not thinking too clearly.[/QUOTE]

Figured, that's why I pointed it out. :) Take care of yourself.
 
I think the people that would opt out of the government insurance program, shouldn't be taxed for it. If the government were to say "We are going to offer a government healthcare program, and if you enroll in it you will pay a certain tax to help fund it. If you do not enroll in it, you will not be subject to the new tax." That would be fine.

But what this bill is proposing, is not simply healthcare for uninsured Americans, but a complete restructuring of insurance laws that will force everyone onto the government plan in the future, by way of bankrupting the private insurance market by forcing insurance companies to not be able to raise premium levels(at the renewal of a policy period, its already illegal to raise rates in the middle of a policy period for any reason) for unhealthy consumers of healthcare. Its to say, if the government made it illegal to raise the car insurance premiums of people with a bad driving record. That wouldn't make any sense would it? Thats what they are going to do to private health insurance.
 
My husband's not insured, has never been insured in his life, and can't get insured (his workplace offers no insurance, private insurance costs too much, and he can't afford to switch jobs).
I imagine we'll deal with this the same way we've dealt with everything else the government has thrown at us: simply refuse to comply. And if they try to levy a fine, we'll just refuse to comply with that, too. We'll leave them no option but to put us in jail, which they probably won't do because we're nobody important, just some struggling working-class people who don't own a thing except a couple of cars that were flat-out given to us as gifts. If they want to put us in jail for not being able to afford health insurance, we'll go to the media. We're pretty good at portraying ourselves as pathetic.

This is more or less the same tack we took when the IRS came after us a few years ago for never having filed taxes in our lives. They weren't going to be able to do anything to us, either. They threatened to garnish our wages, we threatened to quit our jobs and go back to working under-the-table, which was what we'd already done for most of our lives. They only caught up with us because we got legitimate jobs.

Ultimately, the only reason we decided to get on a payment plan and cooperate with the IRS is because I'm going to inherit some money and property someday, and if we were on some IRS ****-list at the time, they could probably seize it all. If it hadn't been for that, and for my family's concern over that eventuality, I never would've agreed to cooperate with the IRS in any way.

We're very good at passive resistance.
We will never cooperate with the plan described above, and the government will never be able to do anything about it, either.
They'll discover it's too much trouble to **** with us.
 
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I thought I remember you saying you had gotten some health insurance through your work, and you were going to "try it out". Is this no longer the case?
 
Ugh. Maybe our government is just ten times more inept than most. Seriously, they want to implement one of the major flaws of the Mass. Plan into the national plan? Requiring people to buy insurance is just a subsidy for the already misbehaved private insurance and a hardship on people who can't pay the premiums. Maybe this will be mitigated, in comparison to the Mass. Plan, by having the public option, but we'll see how well that works out in the long run with how ****ing stupid and in the pockets of special interests Congress is.
 
I thought I remember you saying you had gotten some health insurance through your work, and you were going to "try it out". Is this no longer the case?

Yeah, my dad got me health insurance through my work, a year ago last fall. He reimburses me every month for what they take out of my check (which is a lot).
I took a temporary leave of absence from work, but started back last week, so I still have insurance.
As I said in my post, my husband doesn't have insurance, never did, never will. His job doesn't offer it, and he can't afford to leave his job. He's been there for years. He doesn't make enough for private coverage, though.

(On an unrelated note, I don't think "having insurance" has necessarily been a good thing for me; I've never felt sicker or been on more meds in my life, than I have in the past year and a half since I've had insurance).
 
Yeah, my dad got me health insurance through my work, a year ago last fall. He reimburses me every month for what they take out of my check (which is a lot).
I took a temporary leave of absence from work, but started back last week, so I still have insurance.
As I said in my post, my husband doesn't have insurance, never did, never will. His job doesn't offer it, and he can't afford to leave his job. He's been there for years. He doesn't make enough for private coverage, though.

(On an unrelated note, I don't think "having insurance" has necessarily been a good thing for me; I've never felt sicker or been on more meds in my life, than I have in the past year and a half since I've had insurance).

I guess I was assuming your health insurance plan was a family plan. I don't technically have my own insurance, but I am on the insurance plan my wife gets through her employer.
 
****ing hell im actually missing republicans. o_O
 
I guess I was assuming your health insurance plan was a family plan. I don't technically have my own insurance, but I am on the insurance plan my wife gets through her employer.

No. He doesn't want insurance, anyway.
I didn't either; I only got it because of a very specific medical problem I was having about two years ago; since that's been resolved, I really don't want insurance anymore, although I still have it.
I guess I've always been more of the school of thought that if you ignore a symptom long enough, it will probably go away or resolve on its own after awhile. If it doesn't, or if it gets a lot worse, you probably need to go to the ER.
This alternative to health insurance is actually quite feasible for most healthy young adults. I realize, however, that as one gets older, it becomes akin to playing russian roulette.
I am still coming to terms with the fact that I'm not young anymore; that I'm actually old enough to get cancer or some other serious illness.
My husband still has not come to terms with that fact, and may never.
He doesn't like doctors and doesn't want insurance.
 
You are required to have car insurance in NJ no matter what. If you do not have it and are caught, you get a variety of consequences. Here are the requirements and the consequences for NOT carrying insurance:

Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Living is a right.

See the difference?
 
If I recall correctly, when Edwards was still a serious presidential contender, he had ideas about a similar plan; I believe that his would've mandated not only health insurance coverage but also compliance with all doctor-recommended screenings (annual PAPs and mammograms starting at 40 for women; yearly physicals for everyone; colonoscopies each year for everyone over 50, etc).
I believe he cited his wife's inoperable breast cancer as the reason, and the fact that her life could've been saved under this plan.

These notions pretty much made him a laughingstock and knocked him out of the running for democratic nominee, even before his fall from grace.
 
If I recall correctly, when Edwards was still a serious presidential contender......

Someone once took Edwards seriously? ;) :mrgreen:
 
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Ya know a few months ago if someone had asked me if I had ever thought that our government would push through something like this I would have laughed in their face and told them that they were idiots.

Now....now I'm not going to put anything past them. I know alot of people blame Bush for so many things...but at least he never tried this crap.
 
Ya know a few months ago if someone had asked me if I had ever thought that our government would push through something like this I would have laughed in their face and told them that they were idiots.


Now....now I'm not going to put anything past them. I know alot of people blame Bush for so many things...but at least he never tried this crap.

You give people an inch and they try to take a mile. This is just a step above making people pay for public education from,forcing people to give money to abortion groups, forcing tax payers to give money to every useless study out there, forcing people to give money to other countries in the form of foreign aid and many other things. With all those things in mind it should be a surprise at all when the government tries some **** like this.
 
You give people an inch and they try to take a mile. This is just a step above making people pay for public education from,forcing people to give money to abortion groups, forcing tax payers to give money to every useless study out there, forcing people to give money to other countries in the form of foreign aid and many other things. With all those things in mind it should be a surprise at all when the government tries some **** like this.

Very true but that is :2usflag:

We elect people based on what they say and believe.
I would like a conservative to lead us as a nation, but you need diversity without it we would be a communist/dictatorship. There will be people like me that are against the present administration and future administration's. There will always be people that believe different things but we have to deal with it as a democratic country.
Just stating.
 
Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Living is a right.

See the difference?

I didn't mention living. I mentioned living healthy. I do not believe that is a right.
 
I would tell them to shove their mandate and their fines up their ****ing asses.



That's true, however, not driving severely limits one's options, depending on where one lives. One can make this analogy: if you want to drive, you have to have insurance; if you want to have good health, you have to have insurance.
The latter is untrue. I live quite healthy without insurance and have for many years.
 
You're not legally required to drive, CC. Nor is it strictly necessary for survival, though in many parts of the United States it's close.

Any legislator who suggests that health insurance should be mandatory and that citizens should be subject to civil and/or criminal penalties for not having health insurance, without actually providing health insurance to everyone who requires it, should be hauled bodily out of their offices and hanged on the front steps of the Capitol. And it is requiring a good deal of self-control to refrain from contiuing that that their entire misbegotten lineage should likewise be purged from within the membership of civilized society. There is no excuse for this kind of intolerable ignorance of the living conditions of their own citizens. **** their stupid laws and **** them.

If they want to raise taxes to pay for their healthcare plans, for government healthcare plans, I'll support them. But passing a law that mandates citizens to pay for expensive services from third-party private businesses is unacceptable. Congress has already given those corporate whores far too many free lunches and it's about goddamned time we remind them that they are allowed to take our tax money to provide services for us, not to bend us over for the people who pay the bribes necessary to get them into offoce.

That's perfectly fine. Anyone who does not purchase health insurance will just be denied care, no matter what. That way they can die on the streets knowing they saved a couple hundred bucks. Not that I approve of any type of UHC but I understand the rationale behind mandating health insurance.
 
Driving is a privilege, not a right.

Living is a right.

See the difference?

Fine, then you agree people who lack health insurance should be summarily denied treatment regardless of the circumstances? Unless, of course, you were planning on having your health care and eating it too?
 
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