View Poll Results: Where would these events go as the occured? Check the ones DP would put in CT.

Voters
11. You may not vote on this poll
  • Watergate Break-in

    4 36.36%
  • Moon Landing

    4 36.36%
  • Flight 800 Crash

    4 36.36%
  • WTC Collapse

    6 54.55%
  • Obama's Place of Birth

    7 63.64%
  • JFK/RFK/MLK Assassinations

    6 54.55%
  • The October Surprise (alleged deal of Reagan with Iran in 1980)

    4 36.36%
  • Flourine in Water

    6 54.55%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN?

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    Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN?

    Well, what defines a "conspiracy theory"? The unlikeliness of the event, the illogic of the supporters, the illogic of the detractors, or the facts, or the facts that defy the laws of physics?

    Which on the list were REAL conspiracies, and which were "conspiracy theories"?

    Anyways, don't think of the topics I listed as how they're being discussed now, think about how they were when they were shockingly immediate events in the news.

    Now ask....are news stories regarding the unanswered questions about Obama's birthplace, and no, forgeries are not answers, still breaking news, or is it just broken news, in your opinion?
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 07-17-09 at 07:48 PM.

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    So, you don't really want to discuss your thread title. You really want this to be a thread about Obama's birthplace, but you're hiding it behind this poll. Well, let's see if we can turn this bait thread into something good, shall we? Perhaps something about media spin or the agendas of conspiracy theorists.

    If I understand you, correctly, you want to know if any of situations that you presented were newsworthy and, at least to some extent, believable, when they first appeared. Is that correct?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    If you advance a viewpoint honestly, respectfully, and productively, almost anything can be newsworthy.

    If you resort to shrill and hyperbolic rants laced with misstatements of facts and a true passion for ignorance, almost anything can be fodder for the CT forum.


    /thread
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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, you don't really want to discuss your thread title. You really want this to be a thread about Obama's birthplace, but you're hiding it behind this poll. Well, let's see if we can turn this bait thread into something good, shall we? Perhaps something about media spin or the agendas of conspiracy theorists.

    If I understand you, correctly, you want to know if any of situations that you presented were newsworthy and, at least to some extent, believable, when they first appeared. Is that correct?
    Yeah, pretty much.

    After I composed the OP I began running into serious problems of how to actually word the damn question and make the poll work in the way I wanted it to.

    Would an event be automatically dismissed as some loony bin conspiracy as it was being reported as an ongoing event, or not?

    Watergate had ALL the hallmarks of the classical conspiracy kook scam. "The President did what? Ah, come on, ya can't be serious, can ya?"

    The moon landings never did, yet now arguments from nuts are astounding, aren't they?

    I knew exactly what happened to TWA Flight 800, when I saw the very first report on TV. I was working on demonstrating that a lighting strike on a helicopter would not cause a fuel vapor explosion and kill people, as required by FAR 27. It was amazing the amount of ignorance those people proclaiming the conspiracy will spew out.

    As for this Obama birth place thing, I don't actually care where the boy was born, I want to see one document, his real birth certificate, not the forgery paraded on the web. If that document is authenticated by independent experts, then fine, end of story as far as I'm concerned.

    The fact of the obvious and blatant cover up disturbs me, and it should disturb everyone, whether they voted for the guy or not.

    Should I start a poll that asks "if it had been possible that GW Bush had been born in London to a british father and American mother, and he had refused to release his birth certificate, would you say he's a legitimate president, or would you demand the release of his BC?"

    How many of those defending Obama's refusal to release his BC would have demanded Bush's BC? Don't say "none", we both know there's plenty who would have. It would be pointless to post that poll, they'd lie.

    But, if people can put themselves in the right frame of mind for the events, "When you first hear about...Watergate or the Moon Landing or JFK's assassination, what did you think?" maybe it will produce some interesting results.

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    As for this Obama birth place thing, I don't actually care where the boy was born, I want to see one document, his real birth certificate, not the forgery paraded on the web. If that document is authenticated by independent experts, then fine, end of story as far as I'm concerned.
    Independent experts like the people in charge of issuing/keeping the records?

    When we spoke to a spokeswoman for the Hawaii Department of Health, she said too much was being made of the difference between the so-called "long" and "short" forms.

    "They're just words," said spokeswoman Janice Okubo. "That (what was posted on the Internet) is considered a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii."

    "There's only one form of birth certificate," she said, and it's been the same since the 1980s. Birth certificates evolve over the decades, she said, and there are no doubt differences between the way birth certificates looked when Obama was born and now.

    "When you request a birth certificate, the one you get looks exactly like the one posted on his site," she said. "That's the birth certificate."
    On Oct. 31, 2008, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawaii Department of Health, issued this statement: "There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.

    "Therefore I, as director of health for the state of Hawaii, along with the registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama's original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

    "No state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the state of Hawaii."
    We have one more thing. We talked to reporter Will Hoover, who wrote a well-researched story for the Honolulu Advertiser on Nov. 9, 2008, about Obama's childhood years in the the Aloha State. It ran under the headline "Obama Slept Here."

    In researching the story, he went to the microfilm archives and found the birth announcement for Obama. Actually, he found two of them, one in his Honululu Advertiser on Aug. 13 , 1961, and in the Honolulu Star-Bulletin the next day . They both said the same thing: "Mr. and Mrs. Barack H. Obama, 6085 Kalanianaole Highway, son, Aug. 4."

    But here's the thing. Newspaper officials he checked with confirmed those notices came from the state Department of Health.

    "That's not the kind of stuff a family member calls in and says, 'Hey, can you put this in?'" Hoover explained.

    Take a second and think about that. In order to phony those notices up, it would have required the complicity of the state Health Department and two independent newspapers — on the off chance this unnamed child might want to one day be president of the United States.
    They have links to the announcements, if you like.

    PolitiFact | 'Birthers' claim Gibbs lied when he said Obama's birth certificate is posted on the Internet

    (wtf is wrong with me that I keep letting myself get suckered into responding to this ****?)
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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yeah, pretty much.

    After I composed the OP I began running into serious problems of how to actually word the damn question and make the poll work in the way I wanted it to.

    Would an event be automatically dismissed as some loony bin conspiracy as it was being reported as an ongoing event, or not?

    Watergate had ALL the hallmarks of the classical conspiracy kook scam. "The President did what? Ah, come on, ya can't be serious, can ya?"

    The moon landings never did, yet now arguments from nuts are astounding, aren't they?

    I knew exactly what happened to TWA Flight 800, when I saw the very first report on TV. I was working on demonstrating that a lighting strike on a helicopter would not cause a fuel vapor explosion and kill people, as required by FAR 27. It was amazing the amount of ignorance those people proclaiming the conspiracy will spew out.

    As for this Obama birth place thing, I don't actually care where the boy was born, I want to see one document, his real birth certificate, not the forgery paraded on the web. If that document is authenticated by independent experts, then fine, end of story as far as I'm concerned.

    The fact of the obvious and blatant cover up disturbs me, and it should disturb everyone, whether they voted for the guy or not.

    Should I start a poll that asks "if it had been possible that GW Bush had been born in London to a british father and American mother, and he had refused to release his birth certificate, would you say he's a legitimate president, or would you demand the release of his BC?"

    How many of those defending Obama's refusal to release his BC would have demanded Bush's BC? Don't say "none", we both know there's plenty who would have. It would be pointless to post that poll, they'd lie.

    But, if people can put themselves in the right frame of mind for the events, "When you first hear about...Watergate or the Moon Landing or JFK's assassination, what did you think?" maybe it will produce some interesting results.
    Now that was a totally reasonable, interesting, and debate-provoking post, Scarecrow. OK, if you're serious about this, I think this is an interesting exercise. I'll give it a whirl.

    Now the premise I am using for my answers is this. I hear about the event with no prior knowledge of the event, but with an understanding of how the system works.

    Watergate Break-in: I would have bought that it was a possibility from the beginning. Politicians have a history of being "dirty". Plenty of Presidents played "hardball" either getting near the line, or crossing it. Plenty of other high level officials absolutely crossed it (we've had two VPs resign in disgrace).

    Moon Landing: I would have bought if from the start without hesitation. Too many people would have to be in on the scam...scientists, public officials, the media, friends and relatives of astronauts and NASA employees. Logistically, this is inconceivable

    Flight 800 Crash: If you mean, was it a terrorist act, my first reaction was that it was a crash based on a design/mechanical flaw. This is a typical reason for airplane crashes. I didn't consider the possibility of terrorism. And as to the lightning strike theory, I've been in a plane when a bolt of lightning hit it. I'm still here as is everyone else on the plane.

    WTC Collapse: Upon first hearing this, I thought a plane accidentally crashed into the first tower. I would not have believed that it would have been a terrorist act. I cannot wrap my head around anyone who would kill themselves and thousands of others for the stupid reasons that they did, or expect any positive result to come from it.

    Obama's Birthplace: Not believable. It is not reasonable to believe that someone running for President would scam like this. Too many official records.

    JFK/RFK/MLK Assassinations: If you mean that these were not "one man operations", at first glance, I could believe that there was more to each story. All three were high level people who had many enemies and many who wanted them out of power. Conceivable.

    The October Surprise (alleged deal of Reagan with Iran in 1980): On face value, before any evidence was shown, I would not have bought this in any way. Making a treaty with an enemy who was keeping 52 of our citizens in captivity in order to win an election is not something that I believe a statesman would do.

    Flourine in Water: Wait...ARE YOU TELLING ME THERE'S NO FLOURINE IN WATER?!!!!!!

    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Independent experts like the people in charge of issuing/keeping the records?
    No.

    Independent experts who aren't paid by the government, and who are professional document examiners trained and experienced in detecting forgery.

    (wtf is wrong with me that I keep letting myself get suckered into responding to this ****?)
    Nothing.

    I'm presenting the reasoned argument.

    A man produces a forgery, and insists it's the truth, and claims the right to occupy the most important office the world has ever seen as a result.

    Yeah, that's kinda important.

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No.

    Independent experts who aren't paid by the government, and who are professional document examiners trained and experienced in detecting forgery.



    Nothing.

    I'm presenting the reasoned argument.

    A man produces a forgery, and insists it's the truth, and claims the right to occupy the most important office the world has ever seen as a result.

    Yeah, that's kinda important.
    If you go this direction, the thread is going to be moved. Try to stay on topic. I'm giving you a chance here with my lengthy response-post. Let's see if you really want to discuss the broader issues here.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Now the premise I am using for my answers is this. I hear about the event with no prior knowledge of the event, but with an understanding of how the system works.
    Yeah, that's pretty much it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Watergate Break-in: I would have bought that it was a possibility from the beginning. Politicians have a history of being "dirty". Plenty of Presidents played "hardball" either getting near the line, or crossing it. Plenty of other high level officials absolutely crossed it (we've had two VPs resign in disgrace).
    I don't know if I'd even believe the initial stories. I don't mean the page 7 in Section B of the local papers that reported a break-in, but the initial stories hinting at the high origin of the crime. I'd figure people would be split on that one.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Moon Landing: I would have bought if from the start without hesitation. Too many people would have to be in on the scam...scientists, public officials, the media, friends and relatives of astronauts and NASA employees. Logistically, this is inconceivable
    I can't for the life of me understand how anyone could make a conspiracy out of that. The Telly Sevalas airplane chase in Capricorn One was fun, but that movie plot doesn't fit the real world. But people now believe most fervently. How many people thought it was fake on July 20, 1969?

    Not many, I wouldn't think.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Flight 800 Crash: If you mean, was it a terrorist act, my first reaction was that it was a crash based on a design/mechanical flaw. This is a typical reason for airplane crashes. I didn't consider the possibility of terrorism. And as to the lightning strike theory, I've been in a plane when a bolt of lightning hit it. I'm still here as is everyone else on the plane.
    Not that so much. I'm graduate of Syracuse University, and had twenty or so classmates blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, so I don't consider terrorism itself to be a "conspiracy theory", even though it is, of course a crime of conspiracy.

    The conspiracy theory aspects of what happened to Flight 800 would be seeing the news and immediately jumping to the conclusion that it had to be the result of some government plot, a US government plot, to be specific, and then refusing to look at the evidence and reasoning that disproved that.

    I would have switched my judgement about a fuel-vapor explosion if evidence of a bomb surfaced, or sufficient evidence of terrorist involvement. But it never did, and the evidence of the fuel-vapor boom was conclusive.

    So, really, the "conspiracy theory" bit has to cover not just the fact that a conspiracy existed, I mean, it only takes two people to conspire. It has to involve intricate plots, secret people moving behind the throne, improbable or impossible connections, denial of fact, and patently false interpretations.

    A simple (or complicated) terrorist plot to steal occupied passenger jets and crash them into national landmarks isn't enough to qualify as a conspiracy, but if we can make those terrorists the tools of the CIA or the Bush-Cheney-OPEC Secret Cabal, and have ninjas roaming the WTC planting invisible explosives....well, hey then, we've got ourselves an industry!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    WTC Collapse: Upon first hearing this, I thought a plane accidentally crashed into the first tower. I would not have believed that it would have been a terrorist act. I cannot wrap my head around anyone who would kill themselves and thousands of others for the stupid reasons that they did, or expect any positive result to come from it.
    Okay.

    But did you think a rogue group of governemnt agents caused the event? No, of course you didn't, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Obama's Birthplace: Not believable. It is not reasonable to believe that someone running for President would scam like this. Too many official records.
    It's incredible, I agree.

    The problem is....it's not impossible.

    And his refusal to come clean on the matter is what gives it life.

    The first time I heard it I said, like you, "No, it's too easy to check."

    But no one's been able to check. When I first read the stories, I thought "conspiracy kooks gone wild". But the evidence of forgery is plain on the released document, and the process of court challenges and dismissals and subsequent retribution is following a too familiar and too predictable pattern.

    The people should demand the issue be resolved by the release of Obama's birth certificate and put an end to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    JFK/RFK/MLK Assassinations: If you mean that these were not "one man operations", at first glance, I could believe that there was more to each story. All three were high level people who had many enemies and many who wanted them out of power. Conceivable.
    Well, even John Wilkes Booth had assistants. Irrespective of the high status of the victims (why shoot them, else?) did you think for an instant when you heard of the killing that some high government official or some other nation had a role in it? That would be the defining line between "jump to CT" and "awful breaking news".

    I was eight when RFK was killed, so I'm not going to pretend that I gave any of those much thought when I first heard about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The October Surprise (alleged deal of Reagan with Iran in 1980): On face value, before any evidence was shown, I would not have bought this in any way. Making a treaty with an enemy who was keeping 52 of our citizens in captivity in order to win an election is not something that I believe a statesman would do.
    Ted Kennedy is alleged to have asked the Soviet Union for help in defeating the re-election of Ronald Reagan in 1984. No, I'm not going there. On the face of it, it sounds like total lunacy. But the so-called "October Surprise" was kept alive and even investigated by the Democrats in Congress, to die of intense embarassment after Clinton was elected and it was no longer ever going to be useful.

    I would call that one a Madison Avenue Conspiracy Theory, something a professional politician either crafted himself or adopted for his own purposes, but kept his fingerprints off it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Flourine in Water: Wait...ARE YOU TELLING ME THERE'S NO FLOURINE IN WATER?!!!!!!
    Heck, I use stannous flouride mouthwash every night, per dentist's orders. But back in the fifties that was the cause celebre of the John Birchers. It's a commie plot, I tell ya.

    So.

    We have news stories that are clearly factual and won't in general raise any special suspicion's of where Machiavelli is playing today (Pan Am Flight 103), we have stories that eventually become the centers of controversy (Flight 800, WTC), though it's often impossible to see why (Moon landing? that's just weird), things that look like a conspiracy theory and are (Watergate), and things that look like a conspiracy theory and may not be. And that's how I class the Obama birth thing.

    It certainly sounds strange.

    It certainly could be just as strange and unlike as it sounds. I do not buy conspiracy theories and if this issue didn't have the facts and the logic behind it, I wouldn't pursue it.

    But...there's the [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan]Legend of Pope Joan[/ame] to consider. A female pope. How about that.

    It violates no laws of physics, no rules of basic human nature, and no rules of logic that Obama might not have been born in Hawaii, and it hasn't been proven false by contrary evidence.

    So it's implausible, but not impossible. hence is it a "conspiracy theory" or a question?
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 07-17-09 at 09:33 PM.

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    Re: Which of the Following Would DP Count As Conspiracy Theories and Keep From the BN

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    It's incredible, I agree.

    The problem is....it's not impossible.

    And his refusal to come clean on the matter is what gives it life.

    The first time I heard it I said, like you, "No, it's too easy to check."

    But no one's been able to check. When I first read the stories, I thought "conspiracy kooks gone wild". But the evidence of forgery is plain on the released document, and the process of court challenges and dismissals and subsequent retribution is following a too familiar and too predictable pattern.

    The people should demand the issue be resolved by the release of Obama's birth certificate and put an end to it.
    SOURCE: FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.


    The Obama birth certificate, held by FactCheck writer Joe Miller



    Alvin T. Onaka's signature stamp


    The raised seal




    Debate over.

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