View Poll Results: Is banning tobacco products within the military going to far

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  • Yes

    43 91.49%
  • NO

    4 8.51%
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Thread: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

  1. #51
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinDeeMan View Post
    Well let's just tell the world when and were we are bombing or invading a place.

    What you say and What you DO are two different subjects.
    How is that relevant to what I said?

    A soldier cannot criticize the president in uniform in public. How is that even similar to what you say?

    Apparently you still don't get it.

    Smoking is legal.
    Choosing to smoke in the military results in some monies from your paychecks stocked away to pay for extra healthcare costs stemming from smoking.
    Smoking is again legal, no bans.

    Get it?

    You complain about having to take some obligations with a freedom, but you don't complain about actual bans on what soldiers can do. I gave you an actual example of a REAL ban. If you are so anti-bans, how about you talk about ACTUAL bans in the military rather than complain about having to take some obligations for a freedom?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #52
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Why should you have money taken away for something that is legal and that half the nation does, and at the time this does not affect your career. So why be penalized by any means is my point.
    Last edited by JustinDeeMan; 07-19-09 at 12:54 AM.
    There is a popular Chinese maxim: "The hat is good, the shoes are good. However, if you put the hat on your feet, and the shoes on your head, then both become useless."

  3. #53
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinDeeMan View Post
    Why should you have money taken away for something legal and that half the nation does? and at the time this does not affect your career. So why be penalized by any means is my point.
    Do you know what the current taxes on cigarettes are? Federal taxes now are $1.01 per pack. Several states have over $2 a pack sin tax. And counties often have their own taxes. In many places, smokes now cost over $10 a pack.

    And it's not half the nation. Adult smokers are roughly 40 million. No way 110 million kids are smoking.

    State Tax Rates on Cigarettes

    And I've long advocated that those who smoke should pay more in insurance premiums. And they do. Even Airlines are charging for smoking insurance. Several nations already do this on a large scale. America hasn't quite got to the point, but life insurance does cost more if you're a smoker.

    If you are a Smoker expect to pay higher Life Insurance Premiums - EQUOTE
    Northwest Airlines To Charge Smokers More For Insurance, Fat People Next On List : Diggers Realm

    The US government is often going to have to pay for veteran healthcare. Thus is a concern. I suppose there should be an option to forgo VA treatment to eliminate the percent deducted.

    You make bad health choices, why should everyone else pay for your screw up? That's why you should be penalized.

    I take it you really don't think personal responsibility is important? You are proudly displaying that attitude. If someone makes bad choices, they shouldn't have to face the consequences.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 07-19-09 at 12:58 AM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  4. #54
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Do you know what the current taxes on cigarettes are? Federal taxes now are $1.01 per pack. Several states have over $2 a pack sin tax. And counties often have their own taxes. In many places, smokes now cost over $10 a pack.

    And it's not half the nation. Adult smokers are roughly 40 million. No way 110 million kids are smoking.

    State Tax Rates on Cigarettes

    And I've long advocated that those who smoke should pay more in insurance premiums. And they do. Even Airlines are charging for smoking insurance. Several nations already do this on a large scale. America hasn't quite got to the point, but life insurance does cost more if you're a smoker.

    If you are a Smoker expect to pay higher Life Insurance Premiums - EQUOTE
    Northwest Airlines To Charge Smokers More For Insurance, Fat People Next On List : Diggers Realm

    The US government is often going to have to pay for veteran healthcare. Thus is a concern. I suppose there should be an option to forgo VA treatment to eliminate the percent deducted.

    You make bad health choices, why should everyone else pay for your screw up? That's why you should be penalized.

    I take it you really don't think personal responsibility is important? You are proudly displaying that attitude. If someone makes bad choices, they shouldn't have to face the consequences.



    Not when you are doing a service to your country NO.
    Why should you tell someone who is helping you out what not to do in their personal time?? Way should someone that is risking their lives be told they can not smoke outside the base over have a designated area. This is only a way to control people.
    Last edited by JustinDeeMan; 07-19-09 at 01:18 AM.
    There is a popular Chinese maxim: "The hat is good, the shoes are good. However, if you put the hat on your feet, and the shoes on your head, then both become useless."

  5. #55
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    There's a better solution. If you choose to use tobacco products during your service, a certain amount of your pay is deducted and placed into an account to pay for future health care costs related to your use of a known carcinogen. If you kick the can during your service, that amount is then added to any amount given to your beneficiaries.

    Soldiers should not have tobacco restricted, but they should not expect us to pay extra for their associated health costs from a preventable cause. Thus, we leave the choice up to them with an added future cost to themselves.
    If you choose to use chewing gum, a certain amount of your pay is deducted and played into an account to pay for future health care costs related to your use of a known carcinogen.

  6. #56
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Did you even read what I wrote?

    The government isn't telling you what you can or cannot do. It is informing you that you are free to do so but you must also accept the obligations of your choice. Furthermore, when you join the military, the government is essentially your owner. They tell you where to go, what to eat, what to do, when to sleep, you name it. You act like soldiers have lots of free will. They don't. Complain that the government will set aside from money to pay for your healthcare from your choice as socialism is nuts when that government indirectly tells you what you will do in your job and how you will do it.

    The notion that people won't join the military because it will cost them some pay for smoking is nuts.
    Have you ever been a soldier?

    Once soldiers are out of basic training they have as much free will as anyone else except for when it comes time for work to be done, or deployments.

    You act like being in the Army is like being in boot camp for the entire duration, its not.

  7. #57
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Do you know what the current taxes on cigarettes are? Federal taxes now are $1.01 per pack. Several states have over $2 a pack sin tax. And counties often have their own taxes. In many places, smokes now cost over $10 a pack.
    So those in the military who smoke are already paying towards any future healthcare costs. You only need to ringfence the costs so they don't get mis-appropriated into some other budget.
    An easy way to make your plan work is to get the military smokers to sign up and have the smoking taxes they pay now ringfenced rather than have some whole new extra tax or worse still start having some form of surveillance to secretly find out who smokes and who doesn't.

    Not that I like your idea, the military already make huge sacrifices for the nation - it's the nation's duty of care to make sure that appropriate healthcare is available in turn during and after service.

  8. #58
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by JustinDeeMan View Post
    Not when you are doing a service to your country NO.
    So thus personal responsibility doesn't count for much in your opinion eh?

    So thus, you think it is okay for soldiers to engage in activities not required by their job that will cost taxpayers in the future without any obligations on their part?

    Why should you tell someone who is helping you out what not to do in their personal time?? Way should someone that is risking their lives be told they can not smoke outside the base over have a designated area. This is only a way to control people.
    I really have to wonder if you can read. Clearly you don't understand that taxpayers pay for the medical care of veterans. If they during the time of their service decide to engage in activities that result in higher healthcare costs unrelated to their service, why should we have to pay for it?

    Or would you prefer James's argument, which calls for VA clinics to be prohibited from providing treatment for smoking related diseases?

    I'm not for bans, but you don't seem to give a crap about personal responsibility.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  9. #59
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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    If you choose to use chewing gum, a certain amount of your pay is deducted and played into an account to pay for future health care costs related to your use of a known carcinogen.
    If you could show that it poses a material level of risk, sure. But I doubt you can. Furthermore, Methyleugenol is only believed to be. The various chemical parts of tobacco are known to be carcinogens.

    Once soldiers are out of basic training they have as much free will as anyone else except for when it comes time for work to be done, or deployments.
    They can say whatever they want? By the way, you just said what I said. Good job on failure to read and understand the written word.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Ban on Tobacco urged in military

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    So those in the military who smoke are already paying towards any future healthcare costs. You only need to ringfence the costs so they don't get mis-appropriated into some other budget.
    Can you cite evidence that those who smoke are already paying for more future healthcare costs? That there is allocation of their pay towards such costs?

    An easy way to make your plan work is to get the military smokers to sign up and have the smoking taxes they pay now ringfenced rather than have some whole new extra tax or worse still start having some form of surveillance to secretly find out who smokes and who doesn't.
    Fair enough. The whole notion I gave was to allow them to do what they want to do, but also enforce some obligations that come with their freedom. Clarence Thomas if you will. One cannot expect freedoms without obligations, which JustinDeeMan seems to think is totally okay, that personal responsibility does not apply to soldiers. I'm against a ban, but I'm also against unnecessary health costs forced upon taxpayers.

    Not that I like your idea, the military already make huge sacrifices for the nation - it's the nation's duty of care to make sure that appropriate healthcare is available in turn during and after service.
    But is it the nation's duty to pay for healthcare for activities unrelated to the job of serving the country?

    Simply taking it a step further, a soldier who gets AIDs from a local hooker should not be expected to have the US taxpayer foot his AIDs bill. Sleeping around is not a required part of the job, just as smoking isn't. By the reasoning you give, whatever healthcare problems a soldier gets during service regardless of whether or not those activities were required should be entirely paid by taxpayers.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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