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  • Far Left

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Thread: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

  1. #71
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    That's like saying would you rather die by electrocution or lethal injection. Either way, you're still dead!

    In the past (60's), the far left has been known to get violent. But in recent years, the real violent domestic terrorists are on the far-right. In fact, they're so far out there, I'm not even sure its fair to call them right.

    Pro-Life is a conservative 'right' position.

    ELF and the environment is 'left' position.

    Sure the pro-environment movement in the extreme has lead to the loss or property. And getting doused in paint by Peta certainly ruins a night out, however... when you're talking about shooting people dead because you disagree with them, the far-right (in past 2 decades anyway) has the body count.

    I would not call Timothy McVeigh left or right, nor would I call the Unabomber left or right. These extremes have to be defined as Anti-establishment, anti-American. They believe in nothing except themselves and their own limited world view.

  2. #72
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    --

    Wage slavery. The economic framework of capitalism involves a scheme in which the private ownership of the means of production (acquired through a coercive process of "primitive accumulation")
    I would agree if the only way that capital venture could flourish was from wealthy private individuals starting up companies directly or through secondary agents (bankrolling their kids start-up or on the stock market) but there are many examples of successful companies started up by people with little or no wealth behind them.

    Ironically, you could even count the free software / open source movement as a success story that has benefited from existing under a capitalist world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    -- consequent hierarchical subordination of labor under capital enables the extraction of surplus value from the working class in the production process through the use of wage labor and subsequent utilization in the circulation process in order to perpetuate a vicious cycle of capital accumulation.
    That's one way of looking at the process - I believe humans tend to show reward based behaviour. Few people would put themselves through the stress of starting up their own capitalist venture without promise of some form of reward and equally few people would submit their services to a company or business without promise of some form of reward.

    Where I do disagree with most people who hold views such as yours is when we consider incentivisation - the last person I discussed such ideologies with (on another forum) couldn't get past the fact that without incentives (i.e. genetic: leaving a legacy to their children or family or financial: the financial reward of making their life better or challenge: the sheer challenge to be the best in your field) then many people wouldn't bother starting up businesses.

    I couldn't agree with him that people would simply go through the stress and strain of starting up a company / production facility simply to see the rewards or incentives go elsewhere. A true socialist might see something wrong with someone like Bill Gates leaving a huge fortune to his children who would then have a huge advantage over anyone else if they wanted to run their own business (A great example here in the UK is Paul McCartney's talentless daughter Stella McCartney - her success is based on her father bankrolling her ventures and her hiring better designers she can sign her name to) but then without the capitalist framework that allowed Bill Gates to create his software company we might not have the Windows company itself.

    Simply put - take away incentives and people don't get out the front door to change the world.

  3. #73
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    It's like a bully giving you a choice of being punched with his left fist or his right... They are not opposite extremes, just two flavors of socialism - I reject both of them.

    The extreme I favor is the very top of the Nolan Chart - complete individual liberty.
    Last edited by Alex Libman; 07-10-09 at 04:30 AM.

  4. #74
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your entire post.

    The majority of what you stated as the far left are typical beliefs of the majority of left leaning people, not the extreme end of the party. On the other hand, for the far right you specifically went to the extremes, not the main stream of "the right".

    Thus showing you seem to believe that what is currently rather mainstream liberalism is the far left, what is extreme conservatism is the far right, and apparently the extreme on the left side just doesn't exist to you.
    If what you post is correct, then I am happy to say that I guess rather than being "far left" I am mainstream left and more in line with the majority of the country. That is very encouraging.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  5. #75
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    Sure, some may identify with the left & still be in favor 2nd amendment and many other individual rights. That doesn't mean the the political left identifies the same individual liberties. They simply do not. For the most part the political left is against the 2nd amendment, State's rights, limited government, original intent in interpreting the Constitution, free-market capitalism and individual liberty. (the latter being a fallacy if there is a system absent of the ability for a cash payment to be exchanged for a good or service). I'm sure you are aware of that.
    As a solid liberal and member of "the left", I find your argument that the left is against individual liberties as a whole rather remarkable. Seriously, you don't generally see the left being opposed to a woman's right to choose, religious freedom in public institutions (religious freedom in general), privacy issues, marriage equality, etc. I think you are simply trying to paint the left as being un-American and unrealistic, and the way to do that is to label them as a political group who prefers less individual liberties than conservatives. You cite the second amendment as your source for this. While this issue is one where conservatives as a whole support moreso than liberals, all of the individual liberties I mentioned above aren't threatened by liberals. They're threatened by conservatives.

    If anything, liberals as a whole want more individual liberties, not less. You're accusing Zyphlin of being hyper-partisan in his rhetoric, yet what he said is pretty much dead-on. All I heard from you in two posts thus far is how liberals stand against individual liberties, yet you fail to acknowledge the shortcomings of conservatives as a whole when it comes to those exact same liberties. I'd say if anyone is being hyper-partisan on this thread, it isn't Zyphlin.

  6. #76
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    The question itself is a bit misleading because everyone is different. The more dangerous extreme varies by the person.

    For example most active or retired military personnel see the extreme left is more of a threat because of their rejection of nationalism.

    Me personally its about even; the extreme right believes that the Constitution doesnt apply to me because Im not a WASP and the extreme left would alter the Constitution so much that the document itself becomes rendered worthless.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

  7. #77
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    No, I also pointed to the Free Territory of Ukraine and the Paris Commune, and expanding somewhat, should also mention the Israeli kibbutzim, the municipalities of Chiapas still under the control of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation, the autonomous Shinmin region of Manchuria, the successes of workers' management in Yugoslavia, the successes of workers' ownership and management in the Mondragon Cooperative Corporation of the Basque region of Spain, and the successes of workers' ownership and management in general, which are integral elements in the formation of enterprises superior to the orthodox capitalist firm and would be at the core of the libertarian socialist economy.
    All small scale. On a large scale again it has never worked and can't. This has been proven time after time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Actually, I provided an example of its successful implementation that involved millions of people, and you dismissed it because it was eventually destabilized by overwhelming military force rather than collapsing because of internal deficiencies.
    As I said 3 years is not an example of anything.
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  8. #78
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Hey, G.I., you forgot "both," and "neither," and "other."


    TED,
    Would've voted "both."
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #79
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Libman View Post
    It's like a bully giving you a choice of being punched with his left fist or his right... They are not opposite extremes, just two flavors of socialism - I reject both of them.

    The extreme I favor is the very top of the Nolan Chart - complete individual liberty.
    Thankfully, that position isn't influential enough to be a threat to America.

  10. #80
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    But liberalism and socialism are opposing ideologies.
    I think that one sentence encapsulates what most people are not aware of, and often 'wrongly' associated as being conducive to one another. If one was juxtaposed with the other it highlights the difference.

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