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  • Far Left

    53 47.32%
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    59 52.68%
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Thread: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

  1. #51
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    If the premise is such that the far left is dangerous to this country because of an unwillingness to confront a particular enemy, both phyically and ideologically, the irony of the situation is that it is the enemy thus ignored which embodies the most conservative agenda known. With some (and I do say SOME) wacked out leftists acting as little more than useful idiots for Islamism, such a premise might be considered as having some validity, but thankfully, extremely few, if any of these people are actually in power. One encounters them far more frequently on the internet, or in academia, but none with any real authority.

    Seems to me that what is often lost in conversations such as these due to the partisan nature of the original setup is that if one does consider the differences between the far left and far right here, the end product of that which is being enabled is actually a far right ideology in either case. It only depends on WHICH right wing ideology -- that of the white supremecist/survivalist type goon or the Islamist goon. There is certainly a portion of the left too whacked out to realize much of anything, especially inasmuch that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Islamism is virulently right wing, but there is also a portion of the right that doesn't realize that when it fights against Islamism, it is upholding LIBERAL values.

    Both the far left and far right are dangerous. What I suspect here, though, is that we really aren't talking about the far left and far right, but rather the mainstream left vrs. Mainstream right. In this case, a whole different sort of conversation should ensue, especially in regards to this notion of defending the country. In this case, the mainstream left wants to defend the country more through diplomacy than raw power (carrot vrs. stick), while the right is more predisposed towads the expression of power. If people could only see that the objective here is the same, but only the methods diffrer, perhaps they would refrain from so much finger pointing.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Kori summed it up best.

    This is picking between getting mauled by a shark or getting set on fire. The far left and the far right are both horrendous choices and neither is a good choice. I don't think either is noticably "more" dangerous to America, they're just dangerous in different ways.

  3. #53
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Ignore the large contingent of secularist athiests in the FAR left that believe that religion must be abolished for reason to win out and that mention of it anywhere outside of the home should be frowned upon.

    We'll not say that some on the Far left feel that kids should be taught they must experiment to find out what they're sexual preference really is and that we should allow for even wilder types of rights such as the ability to marry animals (go check out women marries dog). Yeah, that's not the mainstream left, but the far left.


    They don't want 3rd term abortions allowed up to the day before the kid comes out, or government funded abortions, or anything like that...no no no, that may make them sound extreme and far and we can't have that because the far left is completely reasonable, unlike those evil rotten far right people.

    Nothing about how they believe multiple industries should be ran by the government instead. Nothing about how anything bad for the environment should be extremely and completely taxed if not banned. Nothing about huge taxes on any kind of stock options. No, no no no, those are FAR to extreme to ever be included in a discussion about the FAR left.



    We can't possibly say the FAR left is for banning substances that they deem "unhealthy" deciding you can't eat certain kinds of foods anymore or do certain types of activities anymore. Lets not mention the FAR left would like everyone to be forced to be on this health care, no matter their wealth or ability to own private health care, because that's what'd be most "Fair". Let us ignore that the FAR left would like to take 50% or more of some peoples income to help fund this kind of stuff. No no no, don't say anything extreme about the FAR left disney, that'd just be intellectually honest of you.




    Yes, lets not say that the FAR left does not believe we should do anything militarily ever unless we're on the brink of annhiliation and even then its questionable. Lets not say that the far left would like to make it nearly impossible for the government to have a way, legal or no, to do survelliance on any modern technology communication formats.

    You are wrong on several levels here Zyph.

    First of all, I don't believe the Far Left is mainstream at all. Where have I ever said anything that would cause you to believe that. I have said constantly that my views are to the far left of the mainstream in this country.
    I have said that I accept the fact that the Democratic party will likely be anything better than left leaning moderate. There is no chance that the Democrats will ever adopt the views that I hold because the country is much more moderate overall than my personal views.

    That said....the far left does not try to confine religion to people's homes. In fact, it is liberals that have been the first to stand up and fight for the rights of individuals to practice whatever religion they want. The only thing that the far left has been vigilant on is fighting the radical right in keeping religion out of the government square...not the public square. Keeping religion out of the schools, not out of the churches. Can you give a single example of where the far left has tried to prevent a private business from placing religious icons or other aspects of religion on their property?


    Where has anyone on the left argued that children should be taught to experiment or advocate for women to marry dogs. That is just another ridiculous claim and scare tactics that the far right has tried to sell America in order to manipulate their agenda.

    As for third term abortions...no one on the left is out arguing that this is a good thing or that it should even be allowed without restriction. The far left has basically taken the position that third term abortions should be illegal unless it is deemed medically necessary. The far left is far from advancing an agenda that abortions should be practiced freely and recklessly. We believe that abortion should be legal but few...however, that choice should be the woman's, not the governments.

    As for the economy...who on the far left is arguing for Governmental ownership of industries? Yet another lie that you try to perpetuate in your response. True, the far left does believe that companies that are bad for the environment should be regulated and that there should be incentives and penalties for those that operate in manners that hurt the environment.

    As for health care....who on the far left is telling you what foods you can and cannot eat? True, there are and always have been governmental controls on substances that are deemed harmful, but your hysteria that the far left is trying to ban food is laughable.
    No one on the left is trying to force anyone into government run healthcare. We strongly support a public option and ensuring that people have a choice and that people have access....oh and your 50% theory is just more hysterics. Even the most radical on the right have not tried to argue that health care would cost 50% of everyone's paycheck.

    As for national defense. No one on the left believes that we should sit back until we are on the brink of inhilation....but we do have a problem with spending exhorbitant amounts on money on building weapon systems and ignoring any attempt at diplomacy and using our influence and allies to accomplish the same in more peaceful and cost effective ways.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  4. #54
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Did I not imply that it not already has "worked," primarily in the Spanish Revolution and throughout the Free Territory of Ukraine? I typically refer to Gaston Leval's comments about the Spanish Revolution.
    Thats nice but it was a Democracy not Socialism.

    "They instituted not bourgeois formal democracy but genuine grass roots functional libertarian democracy, where each individual participated directly in the revolutionary reorganisation of social life." - The Spanish Revolution: 70 Years On | Anarchist Writers

    It was also only 3 years. I could say look at the success of Nazism if you only look at the first 3 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That said, the "human nature" comment is certainly nothing new and is more repetitive than anything else.
    Repetitive in this case equals the truth of the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I wish we'd see someone trying to utilize the economic calculation problem once in a while, even if it would flop right away...
    Why would you want to try something that you know will fail?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-09-09 at 11:55 AM.
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    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Yeah....I would say the far right is much more dangerous to the values of America.
    Unfortunately, your conclusion is beng held up by straw men....
    But that's what happens when you start with a conclusion and then create an argument to support it.

  6. #56
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    You are wrong on several levels here Zyph.

    First of all, I don't believe the Far Left is mainstream at all. Where have I ever said anything that would cause you to believe that.
    Your entire post.

    The majority of what you stated as the far left are typical beliefs of the majority of left leaning people, not the extreme end of the party. On the other hand, for the far right you specifically went to the extremes, not the main stream of "the right".

    Thus showing you seem to believe that what is currently rather mainstream liberalism is the far left, what is extreme conservatism is the far right, and apparently the extreme on the left side just doesn't exist to you.

    For example, your claim on the religion shows an EXTREMELY FAR right view shared by a small, small minority...that ONLY evangelical Christianity is the only religion everyone is "free" to practice and that they want they want to forece the practicing of the religion on people.

    Your example of "the far right" on gay marriage is stating the Right wants the government to determine/regulate who people LOVE and that they believe the government should infring upon civil rights...again, the first part is ludicrous, the second part is completely based on nothing but your opinion being painted up to be something more than its not.

    On reproduction, you imply the "far right" wants goverment to control reproduction, a ludicrous notion carried only by fringe extremists.

    On economics, you imply the "far right" specifically don't care if companies "exploit workers" and thinks there should be absolutely no regulation on them of any kind. Again, an extreme minority view.

    On healthcare you imply the "far right" only care in regards to it is that it needs to do as much as possible to reward CEO's and share holders, again, an extreme minority view at best and a ludicrous one at worst.

    All of which you contrast with extremely main stream liberal views that are propped up as "the far left". You're a hyper partisan making a pathetic point whose words are absolutely worthless. Your post is a disgrace and I'd call it a joke if it was not an insult to comedians everywhere. Paraphased is your "extreme" counter parts to what was listed above:

    "Everyone is free to practice any religion"
    "People can marry any one they want"
    "Doctors and women make the decision on the pregnancy"
    "Businesses should be able to function and make a profit, but workers should be protected"
    "Every person should be able to have health care"

    Yeah, read those compared to the above, and find out why everyone is likely pointing, laughing, and snickering at the thought of the fact you're actually SERIOUS about what you posted.

    Those things above aren't "The Far Left" or "The Extreme" left, they're just kind of mainstream left thoughts. The things you posted on the right are extreme, if not just completely ludicrously fictious, notions spun in the most damnable language possible.

    Your post, and your opinions in this thread, are crap.

  7. #57
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    I think extremism in any form is dangerous. I think that anyone who is going to point their finger at one side more than the other is probably doing so for partisan reasons.

  8. #58
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    It's an illusion to believe that there is a "far right" and a "far left".

    They are both on the same side of extremity. I'm not sure if you'd label them right or left extreme.

    I'd prefer to leave it at "extreme corruption".
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Thats nice but it was a Democracy not Socialism.
    All forms of socialism are democratic because socialism is necessarily based on the public ownership and management of the means of production, which requires a distinctly participatory nature. You're likely misapplying the label of "socialism" to the state capitalism of the USSR and the PRC, which is a common error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It was also only 3 years. I could say look at the success of Nazism if you only look at the first 3 years.
    Yes, that's a problematic element. But your point would be sounder if the anarchist collectives had collapsed because of internal deficiencies. However, they collapsed because of overwhelming external military aggression, including aggression from their alleged "allies" on the Republican side. So the point is thus that we know organization according to anarchist and libertarian socialist principles can work, a conclusion we likely could have reached without the experience of the Spanish Revolution, the Free Territory of Ukraine, the Paris Commune, etc., through microeconomic analysis of the performance of workers' ownership and management in the capitalist economy, since this element is at the core of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Repetitive in this case equals the truth of the situation.
    I'm afraid not. Your comments on "human nature" are likely based on an assessment that involves an understanding of socialism as abandoning individual self-interest in order to "act for the collective." Unfortunately for you, this is not the case, and as to the related tiresome "objection" about incentives, compensation differentiations are maintained in a socialist economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Why would you want to try something that you know will fail?
    Almost all criticisms of socialism ultimately fail. It's simply that I'd be interested in seeing a higher level of familiarity with political economy than is typically exhibited by anti-socialists.

  10. #60
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Almost all criticisms of socialism ultimately fail.
    This one doesn't:

    Socialism does not work, has never worked, can never work, and will never work.

    Then again, naturally, one cannot have "anarchic collectives" because the existence of a collective implies the existence of agreed upon rules, which is a form of government, and hence not anarchic.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 07-09-09 at 03:58 PM.

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