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  • Far Left

    53 47.32%
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    59 52.68%
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Thread: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

  1. #171
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Far left is much worse. Facism works, the Nazis and Italy during WWII are proof of that, they just can't be led by some meth-addict/incompetent. Should have waited to vote
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    In my mind, fascism is an example of far right.

    Anarchism is actually the far left, in my mind.
    Anarchism and fascism aren't really on the left-right scale....

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Anarchism and fascism aren't really on the left-right scale....
    Who said anything about a left-right scale?
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Of course I am going to say the far right. Extreme religious right wingers represent all the things that bother me about the USA, at least so far as social issues. I'm going to bet right wingers see it the exact opposite!

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slithering Rainbow View Post
    Of course I am going to say the far right. Extreme religious right wingers represent all the things that bother me about the USA, at least so far as social issues. I'm going to bet right wingers see it the exact opposite!
    Actually, it is quite hard to say which is worse, without using your personal bias.

    Since both are quite horrific and bad for the country, you have to say "well, that one is further from my personal view, and thus is considered by me to be worse." Which in no way says that you think the other is good.

    I personally consider the far left to be more harmfull. But then, I personally lean right a bit, on most of the issues that far right and far left nuts argue (sometimes violently?) about. Thus, I must choose the far left as most harmfull.

    --------------------------------------------

    However, I do not consider a 1-D "left-riight" scale to be an accurate depiction of the political spectrum.

    A 2-D scale is more accurate.

    I was perhaps incorrect to discribe anarchism as an example of far right earlier.

    It, IMO, is more correctly neither and both, as anarchism inplies lack of any government, and thus cannot have a left or right for people to ascribe to...meh

    I was also perhaps incorrect in discribing fascism as far right, as it is also can be neither or both.
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    I personally believe that the far left is much more dangerous to America, simply because it seems that they don't see America as something worth defending.

    In the words of Bill Clinton "I would rather be strong and wrong than weak and right".
    I hadn't heard that Slick Willy said that... That would explain his "Marriage" to Hillary all these years.

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Anarchism is a left-wing ideology, as it effectively involves "no-government socialism," as put by Kropotkin. Fascism is a right-wing ideology due to the preservation of private property rights integral to the collusion between state and corporate power that's typically a feature of fascist economic policy.

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Anarchism is a left-wing ideology, as it effectively involves "no-government socialism," as put by Kropotkin. Fascism is a right-wing ideology due to the preservation of private property rights integral to the collusion between state and corporate power that's typically a feature of fascist economic policy.
    Not that I know much about the exact definitions of those two systems, but it seems to me that you could have a left-wing Fascistic setup. What specifically about Fascism prevents such?
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  9. #179
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Who said anything about a left-right scale?
    Um...the poll? I think that was kinda obvious

    Anarchism can be both left and right.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism]Anarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    I don't think it is far right at all, its not really right or left. The world isn't two dimensional...right and left aren't the only directions.

    Fascism is definately not far right.
    Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement...Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism,[10] rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism. [11]
    It may not be far left either.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism]Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Not that I know much about the exact definitions of those two systems, but it seems to me that you could have a left-wing Fascistic setup. What specifically about Fascism prevents such?
    It's a matter of legitimately "left-wing" ideology being either explicitly socialist in nature or bearing an identifiable family resemblance to socialism. So I'll again mention something I've spoken of before, namely, the contradictions between fascism and socialism. I usually draw from Umberto Eco's conception of "Eternal Fascism" and Zanden's Pareto and Fascism Reconsidered to do this.

    Firstly, as Zanden puts it, "[O]bedience, discipline, faith and a religious belief in the cardinal tenets of the Fascist creed are put forth as the supreme values of a perfect Fascist. Individual thinking along creative lines is discouraged. What is wanted is not brains, daring ideas, or speculative faculties, but character pressed in the mold of Fascism." This is not consistent with the socialist principle of elimination of alienation as defined by Marx's The Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844. Such elimination necessitates revolutionary class consciousness, which obviously conflicts with "obedience, discipline, faith, etc." Revolutionary class consciousness is also rather inconsistent with the "cult of tradition" identified by Eco as an integral tenet of Eternal Fascism. "[T]here can be no advancement of learning. Truth already has been spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message."

    From an insistence on revolutionary class consciousness comes opposition to class itself on the part of the socialist. This is egregiously contradictory to the elitism that constitutes a core tenet of fascism. As Eco writes, "[e]litism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism."

    Fascism also has a necessarily anti-democratic nature. As Zanden notes, "the mass of men is created to be governed and not to govern; is created to be led and not to lead, and is created, finally, to be slaves and not masters: slaves of their animal instincts, their physiological needs, their emotions, and their passions." Similarly, Eco writes that "the Leader, knowing his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler." This strongly conflicts with the participatory elements of socialism, as it necessitates the collective ownership of the means of production. For instance, the anarchist Noam Chomsky notes that libertarian socialism is "based on free voluntary participation of people who produce and create, live their lives freely within institutions they control and with limited hierarchical structures, possibly none at all." Other forms of socialism are of course necessarily democratic at the very least, if not libertarian in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Anarchism can be both left and right.
    Anarchism was developed as a pre-Marxist form of socialism, and modern anarchists maintain an opposition to the state and capitalism as facets of their general opposition to hierarchical social, political, and economic arrangements. There are of course capitalists who claim to be anarchists, but they're generally regarded as phonies by the more traditional anarchists, who maintain that anarchism requires socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Fascism is definately not far right.
    I'll have to disagree with that on the basis of the collusion between state and corporate power and the financial success enjoyed by private corporations in Nazi Germany, for example, who chose to collaborate extensively with the Third Reich. No brand of economic "leftism," whatever your description of it, could tolerate such broad sustainment of private property rights.

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