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  • Far Left

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Thread: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

  1. #131
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm not interested in your crude jingoistic sentiments. The Constitution itself is admittedly rather anti-democratic in a number of ways, and we're rather far removed from the agrarian conditions in which classical liberals presumed egalitarianism would flourish since presently existing corporate capitalism has radically altered previously existing settings, but the fundamental point is that I favor libertarianism and participatory direct democracy. I don't particularly care for arbitrary nationalistic distinctions; the maximization of liberty and democracy, fundamental ingredients in our capacity for self-governance and improved happiness are the relevant aspects.
    Notice how he fails to answer the question, yes of course this man wants to see the US Constitution dissolved that is because he does in fact hate the Republic and everything it stands for. As for his "direct democracy" and "workers cooperatives" what this man is describing is Castro's Cuba and Soviet Democracy, there's a reason why Communism always leads to dictatorship and that is because the workers need their strongman to get things done, his assertion that workers cooperatives are highly efficient in governing the needs and wants of a society are laughable, to the contrary they are highly inefficient outside of a society with less than say one thousand people which is why the communists always turn to the planning boards which again are highly inefficient.


    This simply illustrates more ignorance of political economy. I never claimed that "real communism has never existed"; on the contrary, I claimed that some degree of libertarian communism was implemented throughout the Spanish Revolution
    There's a reason why the Communists always have to turn to this example and that of the Paris Commune as their glowing examples of "
    their" brand of Communism, that is because they didn't last longer than a year and didn't have time to devolve into totalitarian statist hell holes.

  2. #132
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Notice how he fails to answer the question, yes of course this man wants to see the US Constitution dissolved that is because he does in fact hate the Republic and everything it stands for.
    Fine. Dissolve the goddamned thing already; republicanism is inherently inferior to participatory direct democracy, and there are other existing elements in both the Constitution and republicanism in general that inhibit the maximization of libertarian principles. And as I said, I don't care about your crude jingoistic nationalism; my primary allegiance is to liberty and the corresponding maximization of human happiness that results from it rather than arbitrary national distinctions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    As for his "direct democracy" and "workers cooperatives" what this man is describing is Castro's Cuba and Soviet Democracy, there's a reason why Communism always leads to dictatorship and that is because the workers need their strongman to get things done, his assertion that workers cooperatives are highly efficient in governing the needs and wants of a society are laughable, to the contrary they are highly inefficient outside of a society with less than say one thousand people which is why the communists always turn to the planning boards which again are highly inefficient.
    These are most ridiculous comments to make. The USSR and Cuba (though Cuba to a far lesser extent) were and are dependent on a level of authoritarianism completely inimical to the maximization of direct democracy in workers' cooperatives, which was a reality grimly noted by libertarian socialists and anarchists at the time, and indeed, predicted of the more hierarchical elements of Marxism as early as the nineteenth century. As for the similarly absurd comment about the "inefficiency" of workers' cooperatives, the empirical literature almost unanimously indicates the precise opposite. For example, consider Doucouliagos's Worker participation and productivity in labor-managed and participatory capitalist firms: A Meta-Analysis.

    Using meta-analytic techniques, the author synthesizes the results of 43 published studies to investigate the effects on productivity of various forms of worker participation: worker participation in decision making; mandated codetermination; profit sharing; worker ownership (employee stock ownership or individual worker ownership of the firm's assets); and collective ownership of assets (workers' collective ownership of reserves over which they have no individual claim). He finds that codetermination laws are negatively associated with productivity, but profit sharing, worker ownership, and worker participation in decision making are all positively associated with productivity. All the observed correlations are stronger among labor-managed firms (firms owned and controlled by workers) than among participatory capitalist firms (firms adopting one or more participation schemes involving employees, such as ESOPs or quality circles).
    I can't imagine where you've gathered such ill-informed ideas and am frankly not sure I want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    There's a reason why the Communists always have to turn to this example and that of the Paris Commune as their glowing examples of "
    their" brand of Communism, that is because they didn't last longer than a year and didn't have time to devolve into totalitarian statist hell holes.
    As previously mentioned, the Spanish Revolution endured for approximately three years, and involved about 40% of the population. Aside from that, there's nothing but sheer and blatant lunacy and positively obscene corruption of the political spectrum involved in referring to anarchism as "totalitarian" and "statist."

  3. #133
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Extremism in any form is equally dangerous. Far righties are idiots. Far lefties are idiots. Asking the question that is asked in the OP is like asking whether you would prefer to die from a gunshot to your right eye, or a gunshot to your left eye. The results are the same.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Nothing like a well placed thanks-grubbing post, no matter how platitudinous. Yes, of course I'm joking.

  5. #135
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Nothing like a well placed thanks-grubbing post, no matter how platitudinous. Yes, of course I'm joking.
    Actually, I've made comments like that MANY times. Folks around here know how much extremists irritate me and just what I think of them. My comment is no surprise.

    And btw, where is my "thanks" from you?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #136
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Stop trying to cloud the convo with semantics. The fact of the matter is your post attempted to tie the far right in with racism. The only thing that would make the far right synonymous with racism is posts like yours.

    I'm still trying to find the relevance of your point in relation to this thread, btw.
    The relevance as i see it, is what some Far Right groups bring to the table. I,m not discarding what the Far Left would bring to the table, in terms of horrendous policies.I hope that's not confusing. Just a few examples of what the 'term' Far Right means to me. if its not Your definition of Far Right then you needed to be clearer in your opening post. The following examples are gathered by little research or effort, just Google Far Right

    Hungarian Jews reeling from far-right party’s gains | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

    Far-Right Grouping In European Parliament A 'Disturbing Show Of Unity' Among Racists

    Racist Slur: Far-Right Party Leaders Convicted in World Cup Racism Case - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

    World Briefing | Europe: Belgium: Court Upholds Racist Ruling Against Far-Right Party - New York Times



    Paul
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  7. #137
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Fine. Dissolve the goddamned thing already; republicanism is inherently inferior to participatory direct democracy, and there are other existing elements in both the Constitution and republicanism in general that inhibit the maximization of libertarian principles. And as I said, I don't care about your crude jingoistic nationalism; my primary allegiance is to liberty and the corresponding maximization of human happiness that results from it rather than arbitrary national distinctions.
    Then don't claim not to hate America when you want to see its foundations completely destroyed.


    These are most ridiculous comments to make. The USSR and Cuba (though Cuba to a far lesser extent) were and are dependent on a level of authoritarianism completely inimical to the maximization of direct democracy in workers' cooperatives, which was a reality grimly noted by libertarian socialists and anarchists at the time, and indeed, predicted of the more hierarchical elements of Marxism as early as the nineteenth century.

    Both the USSR and Cuba used what is known as "Soviet Democracy" which sounds exactly what you are calling for when it is implemented on a mass scale.

    into As for the similarly absurd comment about the "inefficiency" of workers' cooperatives, the empirical literature almost unanimously indicates the precise opposite. For example, consider Doucouliagos's Worker participation and productivity in labor-managed and participatory capitalist firms: A Meta-Analysis.
    lol employee stock options are not the same thing as worker cooperatives. This was a study of a capitalist system in which workers work with owners and management not a study of workers cooperatives and where do we go to find actual large scale worker cooperatives? Well that would be in highly inefficient economies like that of Chavez's Venezuela. The idea that you can run an efficient business democratically is laughable. Not to mention that a society in which all businesses are ran this way would simply grind to a halt and resort to the centralized planning board IE welcome to the Soviet Union. "How much rice do we want to produce this year?" "Let's put it to a vote." Oops now the masses are starving.

    As previously mentioned, the Spanish Revolution endured for approximately three years, and involved about 40% of the population. Aside from that, there's nothing but sheer and blatant lunacy and positively obscene corruption of the political spectrum involved in referring to anarchism as "totalitarian" and "statist."
    I think I'll do without the mass executions of your supposed non-statist libertarian communists. lol the basic principle of libertarianism is that the use of force itself is immoral and yet your glowing example of libertarian communism implemented mass executions against those they considered bourgeois.

  8. #138
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    I personally believe that the far left is much more dangerous to America, simply because it seems that they don't see America as something worth defending.

    In the words of Bill Clinton "I would rather be strong and wrong than weak and right".
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    And when was the last time America needed defending and the 'far left' didn't defend America???
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    Mommy I am only 10 years old and I was surprised to kick the ass of that Pussy. Son that Pussy didn't listen to S.S.1

  9. #139
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Stinger1 View Post
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    And when was the last time America needed defending and the 'far left' didn't defend America???
    -
    Historically? They took their que from the Soviet Union, for example when the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was signed the far left in the U.S. was anti-war but when Hitler invaded poof they were magically pro-war. Funny how that works huh?

  10. #140
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Historically? They took their que from the Soviet Union, for example when the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was signed the far left in the U.S. was anti-war but when Hitler invaded poof they were magically pro-war. Funny how that works huh?
    The UK Anti War demonstrations pulled together all manner of 'opposing' ideologies. Its funny what a common belief can do.

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