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Thread: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

  1. #111
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I'm afraid not. Communism requires not only the precondition of socialism (the collective ownership and management of the means of production), but the additional elements of abolition of money, markets, and the state. It's absurd to claim that Stalinism or the USSR achieved "communism," and I don't know of anyone familiar with political economy who claims otherwise. Even self-professed Stalinists won't claim that.

    Tell me, are there any knowledgeable anti-socialists here capable of offering a sound criticism?
    You are very well-spoken and knowledgable person, however your assertion that the U.S.S.R was not a communist nation is just blatantly false. Communism under a fascist dictator is still communism. The only difference between communism and stalinism is that the latter requires a ruler with absolute power, however the system of government in which Stalin ruled was communist.

    If you have time, here is a definition to elaborate further.

    Definition of communism

    I'm using this definition because it specifically cites early 20th century Soviet Union as an example.
    Last edited by G.I. Joe; 07-10-09 at 11:42 PM.

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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    You are very well-spoken and knowledgable person, however your assertion that the U.S.S.R was not a communist nation is just blatantly false. Communism under a fascist dictator is still communism. The only difference between communism and stalinism is that the latter requires a ruler with absolute power, however the system of government in which Stalin ruled was communist.

    If you have time, here is a definition to elaborate further.

    Definition of communism

    I'm using this definition because it specifically cites early 20th century Soviet Union as an example.
    That page is rather clumsily assembled, as illustrated by phrases such as "[a]t the time, when society ruled by proletariat would be enough rich, at the time when capitalist class would no longer exist, society was believed to transform in communist one egalitarian and justify." But aside from the popular misconception that the political/economic system of the USSR and related authoritarian states was in some manner "socialist" or "communist," its ideology of rule by a party elite was necessarily in conflict with the collective and participatory elements that legitimate socialism and communism necessitates. The political/economic system in question can thus best be described as state capitalist in nature, since it effectively replicated the social hierarchies present in capitalism, where the means of production are controlled by a tiny elite. The only distinction was that a corporate elite owns and manages the means of production in the capitalist economy, whereas a state elite owns and manages the means of production in a state capitalist (or coordinatorist) economy.


  3. #113
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    That page is rather clumsily assembled, as illustrated by phrases such as "[a]t the time, when society ruled by proletariat would be enough rich, at the time when capitalist class would no longer exist, society was believed to transform in communist one egalitarian and justify." But aside from the popular misconception that the political/economic system of the USSR and related authoritarian states was in some manner "socialist" or "communist," its ideology of rule by a party elite was necessarily in conflict with the collective and participatory elements that legitimate socialism and communism necessitates. The political/economic system in question can thus best be described as state capitalist in nature, since it effectively replicated the social hierarchies present in capitalism, where the means of production are controlled by a tiny elite. The only distinction was that a corporate elite owns and manages the means of production in the capitalist economy, whereas a state elite owns and manages the means of production in a state capitalist (or coordinatorist) economy.

    I think you're making one fundamental error in your analysis of the two systems. You view the corporate elite in the capitalist model and the government of the communist model as essentially being the same entity, at least in the fact that they predominantly control the distribution of wealth. This is true, in a sense, but there are a couple glaring differences. The biggest and most important difference is that a communist government does not allow for competition. There is not one giant corporation in America that is responsible for our economy. Rather, there are several that must compete for profit, and we benefit from that in the way of quality, price, etc. Also, the corporate model allows for the betterment of it's individual workers, i.e. pay raises for good workers, etc. The communist absolutely diminishes all ambition through lack of initiative.

    So, in summary, while the corporate and communist model are similar in that both control distribution of wealth, the corporate model allows for growth, whereas the communist system can only create a status quo.
    Last edited by G.I. Joe; 07-11-09 at 12:44 AM.

  4. #114
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shewter View Post
    If it's not too much trouble, could you give a recent example of racial inequality enacted or enforced by the "far right"?
    BBC NEWS | Americas | Far right groups 'growing' in US

    Paul
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Ok, so let's say every far right extremist out there is racist. Explain how that makes them more of a danger to America than far left extremists.

  6. #116
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Ok, so let's say every far right extremist out there is racist. Explain how that makes them more of a danger to America than far left extremists.
    It's great that you are rooting for your team, Joe, but the endproduct of racist hatred can be pretty nasty stuff.


    Just ask those whose grandparents were loaded up in cattle cars and shipped off to extermination camps.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  7. #117
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Just ask those whose grandparents were loaded up in cattle cars and shipped off to extermination camps.
    Heh. I would, but that's where you find the Russian Neo-Nazis that are using Israel's right of return policy to sneak into Israel to cause trouble.

  8. #118
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    I think you're making one fundamental error in your analysis of the two systems. You view the corporate elite in the capitalist model and the government of the communist model as essentially being the same entity, at least in the fact that they predominantly control the distribution of wealth. This is true, in a sense, but there are a couple glaring differences. The biggest and most important difference is that a communist government does not allow for competition. There is not one giant corporation in America that is responsible for our economy. Rather, there are several that must compete for profit, and we benefit from that in the way of quality, price, etc. Also, the corporate model allows for the betterment of it's individual workers, i.e. pay raises for good workers, etc. The communist absolutely diminishes all ambition through lack of initiative.

    So, in summary, while the corporate and communist model are similar in that both control distribution of wealth, the corporate model allows for growth, whereas the communist system can only create a status quo.
    That's not precisely correct. There are certainly important differences between the Western market capitalist and the state capitalist (not "communist") models, but my primary focus was on the manner in which they utilized the same forms of effectively hierarchical organization to govern the working conditions and economic structure of their respective countries of implementation. That said, it's not the case that there's free and lively market competition in presently existing capitalism. The factors of market and wealth concentration create market power that incline toward the monopolistic and the generally oligopolistic, which is why new start-ups are not able to compete with well-established firms even if they utilize their resources more efficiently. That's thus my standard response to those who claim that if workers' ownership and management was indeed more efficient, it already would have been introduced by the natural functions of the labor market.

  9. #119
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by galenrox View Post
    What does "far right" or "far left" mean? On the left, do you mean eco-terrorists? Socialists? Marxist anarchists? Super regulators? Mussolini style fascists? A combination? And on the right, is it the anarcho-capitalists? The Pinochet-type fascists? Pax-Americana imperialists? Theocrats? Protectionist realists?

    This whole conceptualization of the linear plane of ideological distribution is way too problematic for this to be anywhere close to a serious question.
    The question is designed for you to give your opinion based on how you view the far right or far left. There is no concrete definition of either. Obviously, this entire forum is a medium of exchanging opinions, so the fact that you percieve this question to be too vague does not make it any less valid.

    Also, if you believe the question cannot be taken seriously, you are free to ignore it and continue with your day.

  10. #120
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    Re: Which extreme is more dangerous to America?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.I. Joe View Post
    Ok, so let's say every far right extremist out there is racist. Explain how that makes them more of a danger to America than far left extremists.
    Dont presume too much. Read whats in front of you instead. Where have i said every Far Right extremist is a racist?

    I have simply suggested the Far Right are, generally, synonymous with a Racist view point.

    Paul
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