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Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing them

Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing them


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Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Why is it idealistic for people who vote for bills to actually read the bills themselves before actually voting for it?

Well, I won’t say that I speak for Fiddytree, but here’s what I get from his post.

Steadily, over time, the Executive Branch in the form of the office of the President has slowly been asserting more and more control and authority over government functions that the Departments and Agencies enact. This power is being taken away from the Legislative Branch made up of the committees and subcommittees of the Senate and House of Representatives that has the power of oversight of executive Departments and Agencies.

Now, one pro of more the President to have more authority over the government and independence from Congress is that the government can act quicker and with more decisiveness. This is because the Executive Branch has only one person as it’s head, the President, who has enormous authority over the Departments and Agencies. One person can make decisions much faster than any group of people.

The con of this is that the powers of the President goes more and more unchecked. There are fewer balances against his authority and therefore more potential for abuse of power. While one man can execute government functions quicker than a group, it is easier for one man to become corrupted by that power than a group. This was why a system of checks and balances was instituted in the Constitution.
This is what civil libertarians fear: that eventually the office of the President will assert, take, or be given more and more powers over the government that Congress will no longer have the ability to act as a proper check against it. Without a proper check, the President will become less of an office of executive power and become more of a democratically elected temporary dictator.

I use the term “dictator” here in the strictest sense - that is, whoever is President dictates how the government functions and it will be so without opposition. The earliest term for dictator was during the time of the Roman Republic; the Republic had the ability during times of emergency to appoint a person a “dictator” who shall have total control of the government for 6 months before being required to relieve that power. This was because in case of an emergency the Senate or other government bodies made up of groups would act too slowly and with too much bickering. So “dictator” here means one who has absolute authority but for a limited amount of time.

Nowadays, however, “dictator” has acquired negative connotations, especially in democratic countries. This is because it is quite rare for anyone who possesses absolute authority to give up that authority, or to use that authority without abusing it. Such abuse of authority from King George and his Parliament was why the Founding Fathers instituted a democratic republican government in which powers are explicitly separated and there are checks between them so no one branch acquires too much power to abuse it and engage in tyranny against the people.

Now, with executive orders the President issues directives to executive Departments and Agencies by fiat - he knows how to interpret such orders and has no check to resist his commands. Basically, this doesn’t need to be applied to the President when he writes executive orders, which has the full force of law, because he knows what it means.

With Congress, however, you have 100 Senators and 435 Representatives and they are all writing bills that are discussed and debated in subcommittees, committees, and Senate and House chambers. It’s hard enough just getting Congress to pass legislation - requiring them to read the entirety of a bill before voting would only increase the difficulty of Congress to do it’s Constitutional duties.

And increasing the difficulty of Congress to do it’s Constitutional duties can only de facto increase the power of the Presidency, which, as has been said before, has overreached it’s authority.

Personally, I think there are better reforms for such things. I think it would be better if Congress adapted a rule similar to what Parliament adopted in that the text of a bill can only deal with legislation that is alluded to the bill. For example, if the bill’s title is something like “The Fair Rivers and Waterways Act,” legislation in it can’t have defense appropriations or spending for roads. All the legislation can deal with is rivers and waterways.

I think that such a reform would be better for reading legislation and making legislation more focused so Senators and Congressmen won’t be able to sneak minor line items into a bill that will obviously pass.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Of course, I wish more politicians would have read the PATRIOT ACT. It might not be legislation if they did.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Of course, I wish more politicians would have read the PATRIOT ACT. It might not be legislation if they did.

No, I'm pretty sure they knew what was being passed when they voted for it. And that's exactly why it got passed.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

What, and miss a chance to look tough on terrorism, without actually doing anything? :lol:

Not a chance in the world.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

What, and miss a chance to look tough on terrorism, without actually doing anything? :lol:

Not a chance in the world.

"Without actually doing anything?" I wouldn't say that about the PATRIOT ACT. There's the illegal search and siezures, illegal detainment of suspects, suspension of habeus corpus, etc., etc., etc.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

You're right, sorry, I'll amend my words:

What, and miss a chance to look tough on terrorism, without actually doing anything to fix the problem? :lol:
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

I would say so, all senators should be forced to read what they are voting on. Maybe this will prevent massive pork filled bills from being passed. I can't imagine Obama's healthcare bill passing if all the senators were forced to read the 2,000+ pages.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Hmm - should they be required to read it?

I think that an individual reading it isn't really the problem - it's that they don't take the time to fully understand what's in it and they shove their juicy candies into it, too.

If they don't read it line for line that's OK - I want them to understand EVERYTHING that's in it (even if that means depending on the LC's (Library of Congress) shortened version ONLY) and play less partisan-politics with it and be a bit more logical, mature, and at least make a good, strong effort to grasp the issue before voting and NOT use every single bill as a way to get their wanted-crap to slide in the door.

The reason why I think reading it line-by-line is useless is because MOST bill refer to a lot of other bills and existing regulations, tax codes and so on - A LOT. I read through 1/2 of the Health Care bill and got tired of struggling to find out what all the other things were that it referenced - it really is a wild goose chase to track down everything and that's not each individual Congress member's job, either - that's is the job of their assistants, the committees and the Library of Congress.
 
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Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Hmm - should they be required to read it?

I think that an individual reading it isn't really the problem - it's that they don't take the time to fully understand what's in it and they shove their juicy candies into it, too

If they do not read it line for line then how do they know exactly whats in it?

If they don't read it line for line that's OK - I want them to understand EVERYTHING that's in it (even if that means depending on the LC's (Library of Congress) shortened version ONLY) and play less partisan-politics with it and be a bit more logical, mature, and at least make a good, strong effort to grasp the issue before voting and NOT use every single bill as a way to get their wanted-crap to slide in the door.
The LCs are not the ones voting on the bill.



The reason why I think reading it line-by-line is useless is because MOST bill refer to a lot of other bills and existing regulations, tax codes and so on - A LOT. I read through 1/2 of the Health Care bill and got tired of struggling to find out what all the other things were that it referenced

You do realize that most of these politicians are college educated and many of them were lawyers. Seeing how these bills they write affect the country and how they took on the job to write and vote for bills then they should read every bit of what they write and vote for regardless of how boring it is. If they can not understand the bill after reading then they should not vote for it and ask that it be rewritten in simpler terms.

it really is a wild goose chase to track down everything and that's not each individual Congress member's job, either - that's is the job of their assistants, the committees and the Library of Congress.

Seeing how assistants,committees and the library of congress are not elected and do not vote on the bills it is not their job to do the job of these politicians. It is the job of every elected official to read the whole bill before he votes yes for it. So what if some of those bills are the size of dictionaries and encyclopedias and contain rat lawyer speak. They can make the bills shorter and use layman's terms. And if it slows down things for them then good, they can prioritize.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

I have to say no to this one even though I know that is counter intuitive. Just reading a bill actually tells you only a tiny portion of what you need to know to vote on that bill. For example, take some minor everyday sort of bill that does something like modify the pesticide regulations for a particular type of crop. To really know what the best thing to do on that bill is you need to have a pretty extensive understanding of biology and chemistry, you need to have read hundreds of environmental studies relating to the topic, you need to have a working understanding of agricultural methodologies, you need to know the public opinion polls on the topic, you need to have read a number of books taking different positions, you need to have a comprehensive understanding of the existing legislation that relates to that area, you need to know the history of it, you need to know what other bills are being considered on that topic and how they will work together, etc, etc. Basically, you need to be an expert on that fairly narrow area before you can make a smart decision on the bill. Senators and representatives simply cannot be experts in everything. There isn't enough time in the day to read even the most crucial information to get sufficiently up to speed to make informed decisions on all those bills every day. So, they have no choice but to rely on their staff. Every senator has a staff of like 20 that do nothing by study up on various areas of policy and develop the understanding required to make a recommendation. What the senator needs to read is not the bill, but rather the recommendations and summary by his staff and similar recommendations and summaries by other organizations on the issue.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

I dunno, politicians have other stuff to do than to read bills.
It'd kinda leave them no time for other kinds of work.

Such as running for office and campaigning...and chasing women and boys(pages)....
Our very conservative Mr Rage has something, and most here seem to agree.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

If they do not read it line for line then how do they know exactly whats in it?


The LCs are not the ones voting on the bill.





You do realize that most of these politicians are college educated and many of them were lawyers. Seeing how these bills they write affect the country and how they took on the job to write and vote for bills then they should read every bit of what they write and vote for regardless of how boring it is. If they can not understand the bill after reading then they should not vote for it and ask that it be rewritten in simpler terms.



Seeing how assistants,committees and the library of congress are not elected and do not vote on the bills it is not their job to do the job of these politicians. It is the job of every elected official to read the whole bill before he votes yes for it. So what if some of those bills are the size of dictionaries and encyclopedias and contain rat lawyer speak. They can make the bills shorter and use layman's terms. And if it slows down things for them then good, they can prioritize.

reading something does not mean that someone will understand it or believe in it. . . so I think it's a hollow requirement or expectation.
I want them to understand 100% everything that's being voted on and so on - if for some the best way to do that is read the bill verbatim, then great. But for others reading a summary is ideal for understanding.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

You can't. But most laws have crappy enforcement. But it will prevent the times where some dip**** politician claims to have "not known" something was in a bill. Really? Here's your fine.

PELOSI said we needed to pass the Heath Care so we could find out what was in it. Ried said of the Financal Reform passing, now we can see if it works. The more I watch Congress at work, the less I understand. Why can't laws be passed in increments instead of huge thousands of pages? Why not vote on things that everyone is going to agree with then hash out the rest?
To just willy-nilly vote for or against a huge bill that is going to effect all our lives seems neglegent if not down right criminal.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

reading something does not mean that someone will understand it or believe in it. . . so I think it's a hollow requirement or expectation.
I want them to understand 100% everything that's being voted on and so on - if for some the best way to do that is read the bill verbatim, then great. But for others reading a summary is ideal for understanding.

You do realize that most of these politicians are college educated and many of them are lawyers, so they should have no problem understanding it. And if they read something that they do not understand then ask someone "hey what does this mean?" or better yet ask the author of the bill or amendment "can you rewrite this so that normal people can understand it and not feel like they are being deceived?". Much like it is a landscapers job to know how to use a lawnmower, edger, and other tools its a politician's job to fully read the bill and if he can't understand the bill and only then does he ask someone what does this mean or he does not vote for the bill.
 
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Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

You do realize that most of these politicians are college educated and many of them are lawyers, so they should have no problem understanding it. And if they read something that they do not understand then ask someone "hey what does this mean?" or better yet ask the author of the bill or amendment "can you rewrite this so that normal people can understand it and not feel like they are being deceived?". Much like it is a landscapers job to know how to use a lawnmower, edger, and other tools its a politician's job to fully read the bill and if he can't understand the bill and only then does he ask someone what does this mean or he does not vote for the bill.

They DO ask people "what does this mean" - these people are their committee members and their various self-appointed research teams.
Thye DO have it rewritten so people can understand it - this is the job of the Library of Congress - to rewrite the bill-jargon and summarize down into a similar but more simplified document. :shrug:

They do these things right now - but is it enough? Obviously NOT. The REAL issue is that they pass things you and I don't agree with.

If they all came out and said "yeah, we've spent two weeks - including late night sessions - on the floor discussing and reading out loud the Health Care Bill verbatim, we all know what's in it now - and we support it!" - would the act of READING it make any difference to your support or opposition of it?

If wouldn't, for me - they could all have read the damn thing. My problem is that they PASSED it. :shrug: They can read it 'til the cows come home - it's what they VALUE and what they SUPPORT (or don't) that really has an effect.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

They DO ask people "what does this mean" - these people are their committee members and their various self-appointed research teams.

Are they asking these people for a summary and only reading that or are they still reading the bill themselves? These committee members are not the ones elected to office so it is not their job to read the bill before voting for it.



Thye DO have it rewritten so people can understand it - this is the job of the Library of Congress - to rewrite the bill-jargon and summarize down into a similar but more simplified document. :shrug:

Unless the author of the bill rewrites the actual bill then it is not rewritten. Some peon writing a summery is not the actual bill being rewritten.

They do these things right now - but is it enough? Obviously NOT. The REAL issue is that they pass things you and I don't agree with.

If they all came out and said "yeah, we've spent two weeks - including late night sessions - on the floor discussing and reading out loud the Health Care Bill verbatim, we all know what's in it now - and we support it!" - would the act of READING it make any difference to your support or opposition of it?

If wouldn't, for me - they could all have read the damn thing. My problem is that they PASSED it. :shrug: They can read it 'til the cows come home - it's what they VALUE and what they SUPPORT (or don't) that really has an effect.

If it was merely a issue of them passing things I disagree with then I would have not made this topic.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Are they asking these people for a summary and only reading that or are they still reading the bill themselves? These committee members are not the ones elected to office so it is not their job to read the bill before voting for it.

Unless the author of the bill rewrites the actual bill then it is not rewritten. Some peon writing a summery is not the actual bill being rewritten.

If it was merely a issue of them passing things I disagree with then I would have not made this topic.

So - if all the politicians who voted for the Health Care Bill or against it actually read it, and voted the same way they did, then you'd be ok with that . . . because reading it is the key issue?
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

So - if all the politicians who voted for the Health Care Bill or against it actually read it, and voted the same way they did, then you'd be ok with that . . . because reading it is the key issue?

I could care less what a politician votes yes for just as long as he or she thoroughly read the bill themselves before voting yes for it. Its another thing if they didn't read the bill and voted no, that would be okay.
 
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Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

I vote yes. They should most definitley read them. This would cut down the number of bills drastically, it would prevent political deniability like the vote for the Patriot Act, that many admitted not reading, and it would create accountability to the people, as legislators would have to openly explain why they are calling for such a bill.

If I read that a politician defended their vote for any bill by stating that they hadn't read it, it would definitely silence me. I would be so flabbergasted that I wouldn't know what to say. Who said this, in response to what, and when? I've heard little rumors from time to time, but I thought they were just that.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

I dunno, politicians have other stuff to do than to read bills.
It'd kinda leave them no time for other kinds of work.

Wait a minute. What work is more important than voting? Oh, wait....camPAIGNING.

The only reason they're THERE is to pass legislation. However, reading them in total is impractical. First, they're written in such legalese even the Congressmen wouldn't understand them; second, they're so lengthy, that the amount of legislation they'd be able to pass would drop by 2/3. Hey, wait a minute!! There's a real good reason right there.

I'd assume they get Cliff Note versions from the bills' sponsors. I doubt their staff could do it either. Just too much reading. It'd be nice, but not going to happen.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Absolutely.

ANY politician who signs or votes for a bill he has not carefully studied is an IDIOT.

So what do you do if you are swamped with thousands of pages and only a few days to make a decision?

It's SIMPLE! VOTE NO! VETO! ALWAYS!!!!!!!
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Good to see that in over a year the hopeless idealists are still around.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Good to see that in over a year the hopeless idealists are still around.

What is idealistic about wanting those in office to do their damn job? They are voting for something that is going to have a long term effect on the country so it their job to read the whole bill and to understand what they are voting yes for, not some schmucks whom the tax payers did not elect. Don't give me that b.s. that the bill is a thousand pages and written in legalese, most of them are college education and if they have a problem with the length of the bill or can't understand it then vote no, its that damn simple.
 
Re: Should politicians be required by law to read the bill themselves before signing

Thank you for saving me the trouble. You almost have it figured out. If only you would connect the dots then the thread can finally die.
 
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