View Poll Results: Would you support a second stimulus package?

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Thread: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

  1. #51
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Unemployment was at 14.3% in 1937. I'd hardly call that "booming". Only AFTER we started the buildup to WWII did unemployment reach consistently low levels.
    A booming economy doesn't mean that we just magically revert to pre-crash economic levels, and everyone who was out of work instantaneously finds a job. 14.3% unemployment was GREAT compared to the previous years. The economy most definitely was booming from 1933-1936.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    I didn't say the buildup to WWII wasn't a stimulus to the economy, it most certainly was. I'm saying it wasn't a government stimulus plan, and yes, there is a difference.
    The difference is semantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    Perception is arguably more important to economic recovery than the actual spending.
    No it isn't. Maybe if you're talking about chump change for some congressman's pet cause, but not when you're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    WWII provided Americans - employers and employees alike - with three crucial elements for economic growth:

    1. Unity of purpose.
    2. A tangible and real demand for products and services.
    3. A sustainable method for supplying those products and services.

    Government stimulus plans lack all three of these components.
    #1 is subjective and irrelevant to the economics of the stimulus. Any stimulus, regardless of its purpose, will provide #2. And stimuli rarely provide #3...including during WWII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal
    But let's, for the sake of argument, assume that any old spending will do and that a stimulus plan which mirrors the spending plan of WWII would result in a successful economic recovery commensurate with the recovery of the 1940's.

    As a percentage of GDP we'd have to spend around 30-40% over approximately five years in order to replicate the kind of spending that was characteristic of WWII [1].



    So, unless you plan on spending approximately 5 trillion dollars per year for the next five years, I don't think you've got much of an argument.
    You do realize that there is some middle ground between doing nothing and spending 5 trillion dollars per year for the next five years, right?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-07-09 at 11:54 PM.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    They aren't required to do anything except pontificate and postulate. I won't hold their inability to predict the future against them (I'm a nice guy like that), but so long as they are incapable of such I'm disinclined to take their predictions about anything seriously, hence my derisive attitude towards anyone who supports their personal opinion with the personal opinion of an economist.



    Yes, and they also like to tell people how those POLICIES will work in THE FUTURE. Since you and I both know they cannot predict THE FUTURE we must disregard their advice as nothing more than a self-serving opinion.
    That's ridiculous. Just because they can't tell you what the economy is going to do next year doesn't mean that everything they say is irrelevant. I can't tell you if it will be hot or cold next week, but I can tell you that in 2 billion years the earth will be too hot to sustain life.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Of course they prefer to discuss policy. Nice and safe discussion, especially since they don't bear any accountability for policy.

    Of course, since they have no crystal ball and cannot predict the results of their policy pontifications with any greater accuracy than the rest of us, they are of damned little use in dealing with a recession.

    They make great historians and passable analysts, but they're useless for just about everything else.
    So you don't believe there is any benefit whatsoever to economic theory? We'd be just as well off with either Karl Marx or Adam Smith in charge of our economy? Would Robert Mugabe and Ronald Reagan be equally competent stewards? It's all a crapshoot anyway, right?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-07-09 at 11:50 PM.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    I didn't support the first stimulus package and I will not support a second one.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  5. #55
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So you don't believe there is any benefit whatsoever to economic theory?
    There's plenty of benefit to economic theory. Just damn little benefit to economic theoreticians, especially of the modern variety.

    In case it slipped your attention, Krugman is no Adam Smith. He's not even a plausible Karl Marx.

  6. #56
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    There's plenty of benefit to economic theory. Just damn little benefit to economic theoreticians, especially of the modern variety.
    I see. So you don't have any objection to their policies, you just object to them as people. Ad hominem, anyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord
    In case it slipped your attention, Krugman is no Adam Smith. He's not even a plausible Karl Marx.
    And in case it slipped your attention, your subjective assessment of Krugman's place in the history books is irrelevant to whether or not an economic stimulus is a good idea.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    And in case it slipped your attention, your subjective assessment of Krugman's place in the history books is irrelevant to whether or not an economic stimulus is a good idea.
    Au contraire.

    Krugman is arguing for more stimulus. The level of respect accorded his ideas has direct correlation to the quality of his theories. As his theories suck, his ideas also suck, and should not be implemented.

    Ergo, stimulus is a bad idea. Which has been proven time and again, alas for idiot Krugmanites who think that governments are created to manage economies and their perverse allergy to reality.

  8. #58
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Au contraire.

    Krugman is arguing for more stimulus. The level of respect accorded his ideas has direct correlation to the quality of his theories. As his theories suck, his ideas also suck, and should not be implemented.

    Ergo, stimulus is a bad idea. Which has been proven time and again, alas for idiot Krugmanites who think that governments are created to manage economies and their perverse allergy to reality.
    How long have you been on this message board? Do you honestly not recognize a textbook example of an ad hominem argument when you see one? I would've thought that anyone who had been debating here or anywhere else for more than a week would understand why this kind of argument is invalid...but apparently I was wrong.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    How long have you been on this message board? Do you honestly not recognize a textbook example of an ad hominem argument when you see one? I would've thought that anyone who had been debating here or anywhere else for more than a week would understand why this kind of argument is invalid...but apparently I was wrong.
    If it were an ad hominem attack, you would have a point.

    It is not. You are the one who claimed that the expertise of economists had relevance over the expertise of others in formulating economic policy. You are the one who claimed that economists' opinions on policy deserved merit.

    If economists' opnions are to be accorded special significance, it can only be because economists themselves merit special significance. If Krugman's ideas deserve attention, it can only be because Krugman deserves attention. As Krugman does not deserve attention, his ideas need not be accorded any especial respect.

    Thus, it is not an ad hominem attack, but a rebuttal and refutation of your own foolish and failing appeal to authority.

    As I have stated, economists make wonderful historians. They are great to have to learn what happened before. Like all historians, they are piss poor at figuring out what to do next. That involves looking ahead--which they do not do well at all.

  10. #60
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    Re: Would You Support a Second Stimulus Package?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You folks do realize that this is 3rd stimulus, not the 2nd, right?
    You are very correct, although I think most people are only counting the ones under Obama, you have a lot of pseudo-conservatives who conveniently forget the one that Bush did.

    Imagine that.
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