View Poll Results: Which (if any) religion do you adhere to/practice?

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  • Christianity (Catholic, protestant, unitarian, etc.)

    20 21.98%
  • Islam

    2 2.20%
  • Hinduism

    1 1.10%
  • Buddhism

    1 1.10%
  • Sikhism

    0 0%
  • Judaism

    4 4.40%
  • Baha'i

    0 0%
  • Shinto

    0 0%
  • Other (Specify if you would like)

    13 14.29%
  • Nonreligious (Athiest, agnostic)

    50 54.95%
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Thread: Religion

  1. #61
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Apparently, secular morality doe not include the proper construction and limitation of paragraph structure.
    Apparently not. But if that's what I doe not do, it's still a fact that you buck any attempts at accuracy like a deer in the headlights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Examples of secular evolved morality in action include concentration camps, the Terror following the French Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, and the Killing Fields.
    Not at all. Aside from the seemingly fallacious nature of implicitly labeling the deeds of a man who declared "[m]y feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter" an example of "secular evolved morality in action," the other "examples" were notably not instances of secular rationality in action, but mere agitated fervency almost religious in nature. As within the church, there was coerced reliance on irrational doctrines not independently reached or understood through the maximum utilization of logical faculties, except that these doctrines were political rather than theological. Secular humanism, for example, is obviously distinct and cannot be labeled similar except disingenuously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    As for happiness being the focal point of one's mortal life, I suppose that's OK if one has very low self expectations. It's pretty much the motivation of the brighter sub-human mammals.
    I'm afraid not. It's the imperative focus of all forms of conscious life; you simply do not understand the label or the nature of its definition, which leads me to believe that you would have misunderstood even more egregiously had I written that the focal point of one's mortal life was pleasure. No, happiness is merely that which one strives for with all self-interested deed, even seemingly altruistic deeds. It's not limited to clearly felicitous emotion, though that is at its core. Moreover, a "qualitative separation of pleasures" crafted by the utilitarian philosopher John Stuart Mill is able to separate the "lower pleasures" of physical urges and such from the "higher pleasures" of intellectual satisfaction and its derivatives, though I tend to view the distinction between the two as somewhat arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    The idea of Human Rights by the way cannot really be supported logically.
    Perhaps not, at least not to the extent that it's commonly interpreted. I'm inclined to agree with Jeremy Bentham that the concept of natural rights is "nonsense on stilts," and that the purpose of rights is merely that of a means to a more profound end, the maximization of happiness. And I certainly don't consider speciesist rights divisions to be meaningful, since beings should be accorded rights according to their ability to logically desire those rights and suffer from the denial of such rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    Once again I point out that in a non-spiritual model of the universe, death of the victim is the perfect redress for all offenses, since it removes the suffering, even in memory.
    You seem to have a rather convoluted definition of suffering, but duration is a necessary criterion by which to judge suffering, almost of equal importance as intensity. For example, some would rather endure a minute-long electrocution than months of a mild itch. And as such, suffering endured throughout mortal life is relevant despite its temporary nature; it is still of sufficient duration to be conceptualized and felt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    In this model, a long life of torture and abuse is completely corrected by simple euthanasia. In fact, since we know that any suffering whatever will be completely erased at death, no suffering in any form need be addressed as long as it does not interfere with the order of society.

    This is very good news for people with kidnap victims chained in the basement.
    I've never encountered such an absurdly poor ethical perspective as your understanding of "this model." The very basis for the "order of society" is the preservation of conditions free from suffering. It's thus imperative to have general guidelines and rules intact to prevent suffering even though the suffering of one individual does not affect the vast majority of others, since only collective guidelines are a sufficient universal defense.

  2. #62
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    Re: Religion

    I'll leave most of the rebuttal to your post in the capable hands of the brighter casual reader.

    But this misconception did stand out among the others:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    . . .The very basis for the "order of society" is the preservation of conditions free from suffering. . ..
    I would refer you to a study in the histories of several quite sucessful socieites, in which the suffering of large segments of its population was not a major cause of concern. Notably, the Roman Empire, various incarnations of China, The Soviet Union, the darker periods of the British Empire, and the United States prior to the abolition of Slavery.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

  3. #63
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    I would refer you to a study in the histories of several quite sucessful socieites, in which the suffering of large segments of its population was not a major cause of concern. Notably, the Roman Empire, various incarnations of China, The Soviet Union, the darker periods of the British Empire, and the United States prior to the abolition of Slavery.
    I've not referred to "order" merely in the sense of political, economic, or military order, but "order" in the sense of generally well-balanced societal conditions, which those aforemetioned examples lacked, since consideration of happiness and suffering is paramount to legitimately orderly societal conditions. That's the basis for a societal prohibition of murder; though individual murders might not harm the remaining majority to a great extent, since everyone is "someone else" to someone else, it's thus appropriate to universalize a defense against murders to the greatest extent possible, which is best manifested through collective societal policy.

  4. #64
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    Re: Religion

    I wasn't really raised in a religious household, which I consider myself fortunate for. So there was never any pressure as far as religion went. When I was young I did attend a Southern Baptist church for a few years, but only because I was "dating" a girl who attended. As soon as we broke up I stopped going. When I was 17 I joined the Church of Satan because I agree with a majority of their views on things. I've been a member ever since. To be honest, religion has never really had a huge role in my life, which I'm perfectly fine with.

  5. #65
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Patrick View Post
    I wasn't really raised in a religious household, which I consider myself fortunate for. So there was never any pressure as far as religion went. When I was young I did attend a Southern Baptist church for a few years, but only because I was "dating" a girl who attended. As soon as we broke up I stopped going. When I was 17 I joined the Church of Satan because I agree with a majority of their views on things. I've been a member ever since. To be honest, religion has never really had a huge role in my life, which I'm perfectly fine with.
    I see Anton LeVey more as performance artist than anything else.

  6. #66
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I see Anton LeVey more as performance artist than anything else.
    As a person, perhaps. A lot of the ritual stuff in Satanism is more for theatric purposes. And I think a fair amount of what the Church of Satan has become after his death has essentially been Anton LaVey worship. They all dress like him and like the same movies. I do still agree with a lot of his philosophies and views on life.
    Last edited by Dr_Patrick; 07-09-09 at 11:43 AM.

  7. #67
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    Re: Religion

    I sent the Church of Satan a proposed "promiscuity pledge" (to conflict with the Christian "virginity pledge") and they didn't like it.

  8. #68
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    I sent the Church of Satan a proposed "promiscuity pledge" (to conflict with the Christian "virginity pledge") and they didn't like it.
    Damn closed-minded religious nuts!!!!

  9. #69
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    Re: Religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold
    I always find this sort of thinking amusing.
    Then you obviously haven't thought about it enough.

    Internally I can justify all manner of violent acts for the "greater good." And without the idea of immortal life, I see no reason to be concerned about any particular pain I inflict on strangers, since at death it would be as though they never were. Any suffering would thereby be erased, present and past.
    Humans are inherently social creatures, we do not do well on our own. As such, we can operate through enlightened self-interest, treating others as we want to be treated in the hopes that our actions will be reciprocated. That's the very basis of a society, a group of common-thinking people who agree on a common set of morals and actions. Why worry about some imaginary afterlife when you ought to be worrying about tomorrow?

    Man will never "outgrow" the need for superior guidance. It's the nature of our beast
    Man never needed "superior" guidance in the first place, religion has been used to control the weak-minded through appeals to an imaginary higher force. All morality comes from man, we came up with it, we refined it, we tested it and rejected the concepts that didn't work and embraced the ones that did. And some people attributed those human-created concepts to a deity and used it to attain earthly power over others as a self-appointed mouthpiece of this imaginary deity.

    Time everyone grew up.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #70
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    Re: Religion

    No religion for me, thanks

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