View Poll Results: Would you vote to legalize same gender marriages?

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Thread: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

  1. #281
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I agree that my non-government stance over rules the discrimination stance. However, until there is a platform to argue against government involvement altogether, I will argue that as long as the government wants to keep their grubby paws involved in our personal relationships, then they should do so fairly.

    As far as it not winning... well, it's winning little by little. It will only be a matter of time. It just hasn't won in every state YET. Six down, so far.

    As for the family benefits, it's been mentioned several times in the thread, sure. But there's nothing substantiating the premise that loving, responsible parents with a piece of paper are somehow better off than loving, responsible parents without one.
    Except this. Research shows that folks who are married with that piece of paper, statistically, do better in all of the areas that I have mentioned. Even with the high divorce rate, the psychology of commitment and security is beneficial. This is why the government has interest in the institution, and since this can be proven, this is why GM should be legal.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #282
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    First off, calling folks who advocate the proven benefits marriage affords child rearing the "bad guys" is setting a fight that is wholly unnecessary, and wholly unwinnable.

    Healthy society is built with healthy families. Healthy families are statistically more likely when the parents are married than when the parents are not. If government is going to regulate marriage, then it is best if it do so in such manner as seems most likely to strengthen the family unit. For most folk, that is the pre-eminent concern regarding laws governing marriage. Distill away religious rhetoric and moral vocabulary, and what remains is the desire for strong, healthy families, to build a strong, healthy society.

    Calling folks who desire strong, healthy families the "bad guys" accomplishes nothing more than making enemies unnecessarily.


    How?

    Even if you personally do not consider marriage to be relevant in child rearing, the weight of statistical evidence as well as the experiences of generations shows unequivocally that marriage on average benefits children. This is not presumption, this is not belief, this is empirical fact.


    The argument is not that same sex marriage is in the best interests of the government. The argument is that same sex marriage facilitates same sex couples in building the same strong, healthy family units that heterosexual couples are presumed to desire. The argument is that same sex couples' desires for marriage arise from the same source and are broadly based on the same social principles as heterosexual couples--the desire to build strong families and to be the foundations of strong communities. The "pro-family" argument is the argument of equality; it is the argument that defines common ground for all couples desiring marriage.

    The argument is that same sex marriage is in the best interests of people, of families, and of society. The argument is not about government, but is made to government.


    Marriage benefits families. People are generally in favor of benefiting families.

    There is no need to say same sex marriage is exclusively about children or even families; merely advocate and explicate that same sex marriage holds the same potentials for benefiting children and families as heterosexual marriage.


    Marriage is not necessary for child rearing. That it is beneficial is not a matter of belief, but of empirical fact. Arguing that it is not beneficial is a losing argument from the outset.

    ACF Healthy Marriage Initiative: Benefits of the Healthy Marriage Initiative



    In that, you are wrong. Raising children and marriage are inextricably linked, and have been since the dawn of civilization. Every society predicates family structure on a marital dynamic; I submit this is not by coincidence.

    One can point to specific unmarried couples who are better parents than specific married couples. That does not alter the broader reality that, on average, married couples have a higher probability of being successful parents than unmarried couples.

    Does any of this require that you personally consider marriage to be a prerequisite for child rearing, or that you personally view marriage to be justified solely for child rearing? No, it does not. It merely is a means for capturing the empirical data that unequivocally proves marriage is a net benefit for children and families, and leverages that data in support of laws permitting same sex marriage.
    I was about to run off and get a link to all the proven benefits. You beat me to it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #283
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Except this. Research shows that folks who are married with that piece of paper, statistically, do better in all of the areas that I have mentioned. Even with the high divorce rate, the psychology of commitment and security is beneficial. This is why the government has interest in the institution, and since this can be proven, this is why GM should be legal.
    How in the world anyone in their right mind sees marriage as "security" is beyond me. Guess folks can make themselves believe just about anything.

    However, do better than whom? Comparatively with near identical couples who did not have that piece of paper?

  4. #284
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But the point is, I am not arguing with the general public. I am arguing with people who know the argument. What would be the point of me telling you something you clearly know already?
    Consider it practice. Consider it an opportunity to work through the particulars of an issue, so that when the day comes for a same sex marriage law or initiative in Michigan, you will be armed with potent arguments to support a cause you believe in.

    A cause which, I might add, needs potent arguments, as the ones advanced thus far in Michigan have failed to persuade:

    Michigan Court Rules Against Same-Sex Benefits - May 8, 2008 - The New York Sun

    Michigan Messenger Same-sex marriage advocates call for 2012 equality push

  5. #285
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    First off, calling folks who advocate the proven benefits marriage affords child rearing the "bad guys" is setting a fight that is wholly unnecessary, and wholly unwinnable.
    Those who oppose me are the bad guys. Always.

    Healthy society is built with healthy families. Healthy families are statistically more likely when the parents are married than when the parents are not. If government is going to regulate marriage, then it is best if it do so in such manner as seems most likely to strengthen the family unit. For most folk, that is the pre-eminent concern regarding laws governing marriage. Distill away religious rhetoric and moral vocabulary, and what remains is the desire for strong, healthy families, to build a strong, healthy society.

    Calling folks who desire strong, healthy families the "bad guys" accomplishes nothing more than making enemies unnecessarily.


    How?

    Even if you personally do not consider marriage to be relevant in child rearing, the weight of statistical evidence as well as the experiences of generations shows unequivocally that marriage on average benefits children. This is not presumption, this is not belief, this is empirical fact.


    The argument is not that same sex marriage is in the best interests of the government. The argument is that same sex marriage facilitates same sex couples in building the same strong, healthy family units that heterosexual couples are presumed to desire. The argument is that same sex couples' desires for marriage arise from the same source and are broadly based on the same social principles as heterosexual couples--the desire to build strong families and to be the foundations of strong communities. The "pro-family" argument is the argument of equality; it is the argument that defines common ground for all couples desiring marriage.

    The argument is that same sex marriage is in the best interests of people, of families, and of society. The argument is not about government, but is made to government.


    Marriage benefits families. People are generally in favor of benefiting families.

    There is no need to say same sex marriage is exclusively about children or even families; merely advocate and explicate that same sex marriage holds the same potentials for benefiting children and families as heterosexual marriage.


    Marriage is not necessary for child rearing. That it is beneficial is not a matter of belief, but of empirical fact. Arguing that it is not beneficial is a losing argument from the outset.

    ACF Healthy Marriage Initiative: Benefits of the Healthy Marriage Initiative



    In that, you are wrong. Raising children and marriage are inextricably linked, and have been since the dawn of civilization. Every society predicates family structure on a marital dynamic; I submit this is not by coincidence.

    One can point to specific unmarried couples who are better parents than specific married couples. That does not alter the broader reality that, on average, married couples have a higher probability of being successful parents than unmarried couples.

    Does any of this require that you personally consider marriage to be a prerequisite for child rearing, or that you personally view marriage to be justified solely for child rearing? No, it does not. It merely is a means for capturing the empirical data that unequivocally proves marriage is a net benefit for children and families, and leverages that data in support of laws permitting same sex marriage.
    All of the above seems to rest on your link that states:

    Researchers have found many benefits for children and youth who are raised by parents in healthy marriages, compared to unhealthy marriages, including the following:
    Do you not see the problem in that qualifier? I would NEVER argue that an unhealthy relationship of any kind would be equal to or better than a healthy relationship of any kind. Thus, the link is irrelevant as far as I"m concerned since that is - in no way - my position. Nor does it even remotely help the position that marriage is better for families.

  6. #286
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    How in the world anyone in their right mind sees marriage as "security" is beyond me. Guess folks can make themselves believe just about anything.
    That's nothing more than your opinion. Plenty do and read celticlord's post to see the benefits.

    However, do better than whom? Comparatively with near identical couples who did not have that piece of paper?
    Yup. With those and those who are single.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #287
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's nothing more than your opinion. Plenty do and read celticlord's post to see the benefits.



    Yup. With those and those who are single.
    His link has nothing to do with the discussion since it compares "healthy" relationships to "unhealthy" ones. That is not even remotely what we're comparing.

  8. #288
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    His link has nothing to do with the discussion since it compares "healthy" relationships to "unhealthy" ones. That is not even remotely what we're comparing.
    I have read numerous pieces of research that show that the health benefits of marriage exceed those of those who only co-habitate...no piece of paper. I have did them up, but I'll be logging off, soon, so it will have to wait. I will tell you that the research is pretty conclusive on this fact.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #289
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    I would vote yes.

  10. #290
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I agree that my non-government stance over rules the discrimination stance. However, until there is a platform to argue against government involvement altogether, I will argue that as long as the government wants to keep their grubby paws involved in our personal relationships, then they should do so fairly.
    In this, I agree.

    My personal view of marriage is that it is a religious sacrament far more than it is a civic institution, and that its social dynamics arise from faith and not from law. As such, government regulation of marriage is violative of the First Amendment, for such laws are unequivocally laws respecting the establishment of religion. The benefits that derive from marriage are grounded in the equally inarguable benefits of a vital and active faith.

    However, the view of American society, and American civic and legal institutions in particular, is that marriage is a civic institution and is well within the State's police power to regulate. Loving v Virginia affirmed that principle explicitly. While I disagree with the principle philosophically, it would be foolish to pretend it did not enjoy force of law in American society; despite my fondest desires, marriage is and will likely remain regulated by the state.

    I will always campaign to remove marriage from the purview of the state. I will never concede that the state has any proper interest in regulating a religious sacrament, and I will always argue that government can best achieve its legitimate interest in furthering healthy society predicated on healthy families by registering civil unions, and transferring to all such unions the same rights and obligations currently ascribed to the marital union.

    However, as my stance is very much a minority stance, my counsel to those whose primary focus is the permissibility of same sex marriage is, as has been argued here, a focus on the benefits marriage brings to family, and that extending the marital privilege to same sex couples, within the currently accepted regulatory scheme of marriage, furthers a legitimate societal interest in strong family structures.

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