View Poll Results: Would you vote to legalize same gender marriages?

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  • Yes, I would vote to make gay marriage legal

    99 69.72%
  • No, I would vote against making gay marriage legal

    37 26.06%
  • I am undecided and wouldn't vote

    6 4.23%
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Thread: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

  1. #271
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This post demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge of what exactly a marriage is, sociologically and legally.
    She's coming from an anti-marriage position, Jerry. Completely different argument. That's why she can't see it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #272
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Your position has nothing to do with GM. Your position is about getting government out of marriage altogether, THAT is why you see it as compromising your position. I'm arguing that apples and oranges are both fruits. You are arguing that we shouldn't be classifying either. Completely different arguments. That's why you can't see it.
    No, my position is that the government should be out of it, but if they are to remain in it, then they should not be discriminating.

  3. #273
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    You misapprehend the concept of law.

    There is no enforcement consideration, because this is not an argument to be placed before a magistrate. This is an argument to be placed before a legislature.

    In other words, this is not about legality, but politics. You want a same sex marriage law passed on a broad scale? Make a pro-family argument supporting it.
    But the point is, I am not arguing with the general public. I am arguing with people who know the argument. What would be the point of me telling you something you clearly know already?

  4. #274
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I don't think this is quite accurate. The question is whether you can sway people with the argument, and I don't think you can on a large scale. What can and will swing the issue in our favor is time. Young people have a much different view of gays than older people as a group. even in just the last 5 or so years, the attitudes of people overall is shifting very much in our favor, simply because those young people are old enough to vote, and voting more.
    You are partially right that time will sway things. But I do not agree that I cannot sway folks with my argument. I've done it here. DP is the world on a smaller scale. GM advocates do not use this argument on a large scale. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, my position is that the government should be out of it, but if they are to remain in it, then they should not be discriminating.
    The first part over-rules the second. You have been arguing from a non-governmental intervention standpoint, not from a non-discriminatory standpoint. Further, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, arguing from a non-discriminatory standpoint will not win...and hasn't won. Arguing from a family benefits standpoint will and has. And it is irrelevant as to whether you believe that family benefits exist. They certainly do, again, as has been pointed out many times in this thread.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #276
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But the point is, I am not arguing with the general public. I am arguing with people who know the argument. What would be the point of me telling you something you clearly know already?
    And there's another positive to the argument. If you argue this to the general public, folks who are unaware of this argument, you can educate them on a level they understand and can related to. Everyone has a family.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #277
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are partially right that time will sway things. But I do not agree that I cannot sway folks with my argument. I've done it here. DP is the world on a smaller scale. GM advocates do not use this argument on a large scale. It would be interesting to see what would happen if they did.
    Kinda in line with what I just said to CL, the argument is clearly there. It is clear that many gay people have children, if for no other reason that these days most people know gay people, and are therefore exposed to this fact. Therefore, clearly being able to marry and create a more stable environment for children is self evident to my mind. I am all too familiar on a personal level with the problems inherent in gays with children not being able to marry, and how that effects the children of those gay people.

    By the way, DP is not a good model ofthe real world. Most people do not have the inherent interest in politics it takes to be an active member of the board. We are freaks man.

  8. #278
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The first part over-rules the second. You have been arguing from a non-governmental intervention standpoint, not from a non-discriminatory standpoint. Further, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, arguing from a non-discriminatory standpoint will not win...and hasn't won. Arguing from a family benefits standpoint will and has. And it is irrelevant as to whether you believe that family benefits exist. They certainly do, again, as has been pointed out many times in this thread.
    I agree that my non-government stance over rules the discrimination stance. However, until there is a platform to argue against government involvement altogether, I will argue that as long as the government wants to keep their grubby paws involved in our personal relationships, then they should do so fairly.

    As far as it not winning... well, it's winning little by little. It will only be a matter of time. It just hasn't won in every state YET. Six down, so far.

    As for the family benefits, it's been mentioned several times in the thread, sure. But there's nothing substantiating the premise that loving, responsible parents with a piece of paper are somehow better off than loving, responsible parents without one.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Kinda in line with what I just said to CL, the argument is clearly there. It is clear that many gay people have children, if for no other reason that these days most people know gay people, and are therefore exposed to this fact. Therefore, clearly being able to marry and create a more stable environment for children is self evident to my mind. I am all too familiar on a personal level with the problems inherent in gays with children not being able to marry, and how that effects the children of those gay people.
    Now you're getting it.

    By the way, DP is not a good model ofthe real world. Most people do not have the inherent interest in politics it takes to be an active member of the board. We are freaks man.
    In a sense you are correct. We are more up on politics and can debate and discuss a wider array of issues then most. We also are more knowledgeable. However, human reactions are the same all over. What works here, will work out there.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #280
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    The gist of what you guys are saying is "make nice with the bad guys and they'll more readily accept your position". In other words, the anti-gay marriage folks think that marriage is for and about raising children. So focus on that and win them over. I get the logistical incentives to do that. However, it would require compromising MY values and beliefs in order to argue that. How? Let me try to explain a little better.
    First off, calling folks who advocate the proven benefits marriage affords child rearing the "bad guys" is setting a fight that is wholly unnecessary, and wholly unwinnable.

    Healthy society is built with healthy families. Healthy families are statistically more likely when the parents are married than when the parents are not. If government is going to regulate marriage, then it is best if it do so in such manner as seems most likely to strengthen the family unit. For most folk, that is the pre-eminent concern regarding laws governing marriage. Distill away religious rhetoric and moral vocabulary, and what remains is the desire for strong, healthy families, to build a strong, healthy society.

    Calling folks who desire strong, healthy families the "bad guys" accomplishes nothing more than making enemies unnecessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    It requires that I go along with that presumption that "marriage is for the children". Even acknowledging that it's a valid argument for their side requires that I compromise what I actually believe.
    How?

    Even if you personally do not consider marriage to be relevant in child rearing, the weight of statistical evidence as well as the experiences of generations shows unequivocally that marriage on average benefits children. This is not presumption, this is not belief, this is empirical fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Arguing that gay marriage is "in the government's best interest" goes against what I believe, because marriage shouldn't have anything to do with the government AT ALL, much less be "in their best interest". It's not about the government. It's about individuals and their position of equality in the eyes of the government.
    The argument is not that same sex marriage is in the best interests of the government. The argument is that same sex marriage facilitates same sex couples in building the same strong, healthy family units that heterosexual couples are presumed to desire. The argument is that same sex couples' desires for marriage arise from the same source and are broadly based on the same social principles as heterosexual couples--the desire to build strong families and to be the foundations of strong communities. The "pro-family" argument is the argument of equality; it is the argument that defines common ground for all couples desiring marriage.

    The argument is that same sex marriage is in the best interests of people, of families, and of society. The argument is not about government, but is made to government.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    See, if I just wanted to debate or make an issue about raising children, then I would simply argue that gays should be allowed to adopt regardless of marital status. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about marriage, which exists independent of children, is not about children, and not necessary for child rearing.
    Marriage benefits families. People are generally in favor of benefiting families.

    There is no need to say same sex marriage is exclusively about children or even families; merely advocate and explicate that same sex marriage holds the same potentials for benefiting children and families as heterosexual marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    So for me to turn my argument FOR gay marriage to child rearing issues, it requires that I actually believe marriage is necessary for, or even better for child rearing. But I don't. So I can't.
    Marriage is not necessary for child rearing. That it is beneficial is not a matter of belief, but of empirical fact. Arguing that it is not beneficial is a losing argument from the outset.

    ACF Healthy Marriage Initiative: Benefits of the Healthy Marriage Initiative

    Benefits of Healthy Marriages

    For Children and Youth

    Researchers have found many benefits for children and youth who are raised by parents in healthy marriages, compared to unhealthy marriages, including the following:

    1. More likely to attend college
    2. More likely to succeed academically
    3. Physically healthier
    4. Emotionally healthier
    5. Less likely to attempt or commit suicide
    6. Demonstrate less behavioral problems in school
    7. Less likely to be a victim of physical or sexual abuse
    8. Less likely to abuse drugs or alcohol
    9. Less likely to commit delinquent behaviors
    10. Have a better relationship with their mothers and fathers
    11. Decreases their chances of divorcing when they get married
    12. Less likely to become pregnant as a teenager, or impregnate someone.
    13. Less likely to be sexually active as teenagers
    14. Less likely to contract STD's
    15. Less likely to be raised in poverty
    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Now, can I argue that homosexual couples can raise children just as well as hetero? Of course. But that has jack all to do with marriage rights.
    In that, you are wrong. Raising children and marriage are inextricably linked, and have been since the dawn of civilization. Every society predicates family structure on a marital dynamic; I submit this is not by coincidence.

    One can point to specific unmarried couples who are better parents than specific married couples. That does not alter the broader reality that, on average, married couples have a higher probability of being successful parents than unmarried couples.

    Does any of this require that you personally consider marriage to be a prerequisite for child rearing, or that you personally view marriage to be justified solely for child rearing? No, it does not. It merely is a means for capturing the empirical data that unequivocally proves marriage is a net benefit for children and families, and leverages that data in support of laws permitting same sex marriage.

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