View Poll Results: Would you vote to legalize same gender marriages?

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  • Yes, I would vote to make gay marriage legal

    99 69.72%
  • No, I would vote against making gay marriage legal

    37 26.06%
  • I am undecided and wouldn't vote

    6 4.23%
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Thread: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

  1. #261
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Marriage is without a doubt the best way adults can strengthen family units. It may not be "necessary", but it is undeniably "beneficial."

    Argue what is beneficial for families. There is no lie in this, nor is there deception, nor is there dissembling.
    Right on target. This is what we've all been saying. I'm not sure how it is getting missed.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    How does that fit legally? As I just asked Jerry, how is "for families" enforced? What laws in addition to one allowing same sex people to marry are needed?
    You misapprehend the concept of law.

    There is no enforcement consideration, because this is not an argument to be placed before a magistrate. This is an argument to be placed before a legislature.

    In other words, this is not about legality, but politics. You want a same sex marriage law passed on a broad scale? Make a pro-family argument supporting it.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    A Progressive, an Independent and a Conservative all all telling you folks the exact same thing.

    The winning argument is the pro-family argument.

  4. #264
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You haven't been paying attention. My argument isn't solely that "it's for the children". Government has a interest in marriage because marriage has been shown to increase the health of the participants, increase social and economic stability AND positively assist in the rearing of children. Notice that the word "procreation" is nowhere in my argument. You are arguing against something that I never said.

    The error in the gay marriage argument is the same error that folks make when they discuss whether their is a "gay gene". There is none. If there is a gene, it is a gene that manages sexuality in general. Concurrently, the gay marriage argument, to be successful, needs to be presented from the position of the positives of marriage in general. As soon as gay marriage is separated out, similar to the gay gene, it does not stand on equal footing. It is on equal footing, if only folks would argue it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I just posted it in post #253. I will do so again: Government has a interest in marriage because marriage has been shown to increase the health of the participants, increase social and economic stability AND positively assist in the rearing of children. Gay marriage fits all of these bills, as research shows. Therefore, legalizing gay marriage increases the health, social and economic stability, and positively assists in the rearing of children, all things that the government has an interest in. Therefore, legalizing it is in the government's interest.
    Okay, let me try to clarify my position and how I read your position (and Jerry's and Celticlord's)

    The gist of what you guys are saying is "make nice with the bad guys and they'll more readily accept your position". In other words, the anti-gay marriage folks think that marriage is for and about raising children. So focus on that and win them over. I get the logistical incentives to do that. However, it would require compromising MY values and beliefs in order to argue that. How? Let me try to explain a little better.

    It requires that I go along with that presumption that "marriage is for the children". Even acknowledging that it's a valid argument for their side requires that I compromise what I actually believe.

    Arguing that gay marriage is "in the government's best interest" goes against what I believe, because marriage shouldn't have anything to do with the government AT ALL, much less be "in their best interest". It's not about the government. It's about individuals and their position of equality in the eyes of the government.

    See, if I just wanted to debate or make an issue about raising children, then I would simply argue that gays should be allowed to adopt regardless of marital status. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about marriage, which exists independent of children, is not about children, and not necessary for child rearing.

    So for me to turn my argument FOR gay marriage to child rearing issues, it requires that I actually believe marriage is necessary for, or even better for child rearing. But I don't. So I can't.

    Now, can I argue that homosexual couples can raise children just as well as hetero? Of course. But that has jack all to do with marriage rights.

  5. #265
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Marriage is without a doubt the best way adults can strengthen family units. It may not be "necessary", but it is undeniably "beneficial."

    Argue what is beneficial for families. There is no lie in this, nor is there deception, nor is there dissembling.
    I disagree that a piece of paper is beneficial for families. It is, to me, an outright lie.

    Loving, caring, responsible people are beneficial for families. No piece of paper required.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    ..../facepalm

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I disagree that a piece of paper is beneficial for families. It is, to me, an outright lie.

    Loving, caring, responsible people are beneficial for families. No piece of paper required.
    This post demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge of what exactly a marriage is, sociologically and legally.

  8. #268
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This post demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge of what exactly a marriage is, sociologically and legally.
    You sign a paper and so a couple of other people. You're married. It's pretty damn simple, doesn't really require a whole lot of research.

  9. #269
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Okay, let me try to clarify my position and how I read your position (and Jerry's and Celticlord's)

    The gist of what you guys are saying is "make nice with the bad guys and they'll more readily accept your position". In other words, the anti-gay marriage folks think that marriage is for and about raising children. So focus on that and win them over. I get the logistical incentives to do that. However, it would require compromising MY values and beliefs in order to argue that. How? Let me try to explain a little better.

    It requires that I go along with that presumption that "marriage is for the children". Even acknowledging that it's a valid argument for their side requires that I compromise what I actually believe.

    Arguing that gay marriage is "in the government's best interest" goes against what I believe, because marriage shouldn't have anything to do with the government AT ALL, much less be "in their best interest". It's not about the government. It's about individuals and their position of equality in the eyes of the government.

    See, if I just wanted to debate or make an issue about raising children, then I would simply argue that gays should be allowed to adopt regardless of marital status. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about marriage, which exists independent of children, is not about children, and not necessary for child rearing.

    So for me to turn my argument FOR gay marriage to child rearing issues, it requires that I actually believe marriage is necessary for, or even better for child rearing. But I don't. So I can't.

    Now, can I argue that homosexual couples can raise children just as well as hetero? Of course. But that has jack all to do with marriage rights.
    Your position has nothing to do with GM. Your position is about getting government out of marriage altogether, THAT is why you see it as compromising your position. I'm arguing that apples and oranges are both fruits. You are arguing that we shouldn't be classifying either. Completely different arguments. That's why you can't see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #270
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    One important point on this. This is not about winning a debate on DP. This is about winning the national debate on GM and getting it legal. The direction that Jerry and I have outlined is the way to go. I always say that DP is the world in a small package. What happens here, happens out there on a bigger scale. If Jerry and I can easily win the GM debate using the legitimate and valid position of the benefits of the family, then it can be done, similarly on a much larger scale. And we do win this, every time when we go up against anti-GMers. THIS is the point I am making when I am discussing "winning". It's an easy win. The only defense is to go with the "get government out of marriage altogether" position, which, to me, is a separate argument.
    I don't think this is quite accurate. The question is whether you can sway people with the argument, and I don't think you can on a large scale. What can and will swing the issue in our favor is time. Young people have a much different view of gays than older people as a group. even in just the last 5 or so years, the attitudes of people overall is shifting very much in our favor, simply because those young people are old enough to vote, and voting more.

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