View Poll Results: Would you vote to legalize same gender marriages?

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  • Yes, I would vote to make gay marriage legal

    99 69.72%
  • No, I would vote against making gay marriage legal

    37 26.06%
  • I am undecided and wouldn't vote

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Thread: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

  1. #241
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Yeah, see, that's not gonna work. I can't argue something I don't agree with even if it will "win over" the opponents.

    Arguing that marriage is necessary for procreation and/or that marriage is FOR procreation is just retarded. And I can't argue retarded.

    It would just be much simpler for everyone if the government got their filthy paws out of marriage all together and left it up to whatever religious groups want to "marry" people.

    Government out. Problem solved. (dear lord that is so true for many issues. I think it's going to be my new tagline)
    It would indeed solve the problem. However, you overlook one small detail:

    Same sex marriage advocates are not advocating government disengagement from marriage. In fact, by pursuing their cause with the arguments thus far advanced, they are validating government engagement in marriage.

    My personal preference is that government stay the hell out of marriage. That view appears to command an even smaller minority than advocacy of same sex marriage.

    As a purely strategic consideration, if one wishes to win support for same sex marriage, championing same sex marriage as a way to bolster family units and stable home environments for children is a solid approach; as Redress has pointed out, there are a sizable number of same sex couples who wish to adopt, and who could provide good homes to members of the next generation--something there is a decided scarcity of at the moment. No, same sex couples do not have much procreative potential; they do have parenting potential, and adopting potential, and there are certainly enough children in need of adoption by good parents to give the argument substance.

    Tactically, the family unit argument leaves social conservatives with few substantive responses:

    1. Rebut on the basis that same sex couples are unfit as parents.
    2. Withdraw marital regulation from the State's police power, and endorse civil unions to manage the legal aspects while preserving the religious sacrament of marriage.
    3. Endorse same sex marriage.

    Option #1 is a guaranteed loser, for the simple reason that the opposite has already been proven to be true: same sex couples are quite capable of being fit parents. Social conservatives would lose credibility, and the debate, and same sex marriage would carry the day.

    Option #2 is a compromise that would let everyone declare victory.

    Option #3 is basically surrender.

    To echo Jerry's question: Why not make a winning argument? Why all the bobbing and weaving to avoid making that winning argument?

  2. #242
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    To echo Jerry's question: Why not make a winning argument? Why all the bobbing and weaving to avoid making that winning argument?
    Because it would be lying.

  3. #243
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Soo... basically compromise what you actually believe, argue something you don't believe, lie constantly to everyone about what you believe, pretend to be something you're not and that'll make it all better?

    Wrong. Education is best. Truth is best. Not lies, misdirection, and misinformation.
    Where is the lie? Where is the compromise?

    Are the majority of same sex couples opposed to having families? Are the majority of same sex couples opposed to being parents?

    What is the lie that is being proposed here?

  4. #244
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Because it would be lying.
    How? Seriously, how is it a lie?

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Soo... basically compromise what you actually believe, argue something you don't believe, lie constantly to everyone about what you believe, pretend to be something you're not and that'll make it all better?

    Wrong. Education is best. Truth is best. Not lies, misdirection, and misinformation.
    Please point out anywhere where I said that. The family argument is not only valid, but it is also true and accurate. It neither gives misdirection nor misinformation. If it was any of the things you mentioned, neither would it be able to win on this issue, nor would I be able to win every time I debate from this position. So, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Yeah, see, that's not gonna work. I can't argue something I don't agree with even if it will "win over" the opponents.

    Arguing that marriage is necessary for procreation and/or that marriage is FOR procreation is just retarded. And I can't argue retarded.

    It would just be much simpler for everyone if the government got their filthy paws out of marriage all together and left it up to whatever religious groups want to "marry" people.

    Government out. Problem solved. (dear lord that is so true for many issues. I think it's going to be my new tagline)
    No one is arguing that marriage is necessary for procreation and/or that marriage is FOR procreation. You need to re-read the position stated. That isn't it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #247
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Where is the lie? Where is the compromise?

    Are the majority of same sex couples opposed to having families? Are the majority of same sex couples opposed to being parents?

    What is the lie that is being proposed here?
    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    How? Seriously, how is it a lie?
    It rests on the presumption that marriage is FOR procreation to begin with. Or necessary for procreation in some way. Or even necessary for a family at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Please point out anywhere where I said that. The family argument is not only valid, but it is also true and accurate. It neither gives misdirection nor misinformation. If it was any of the things you mentioned, neither would it be able to win on this issue, nor would I be able to win every time I debate from this position. So, I have no idea what you are talking about.
    No, it is not valid when one does not agree that marriage is for procreation or necessary for a family to begin with. Arguing that point pretty much states that one agrees with the incorrect assumption that a marriage license is necessary for raising a family, or that marriage is FOR raising a family at all. Thus, arguing that point when one does not believe that would be lying. Arguing that point when one does not believe that, would be perpetuating misinformation and misdirecting from the REAL issues which are personal freedom and discrimination.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 07-06-09 at 12:48 AM.

  8. #248
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    No, it is not valid when one does not agree that marriage is for procreation or necessary for a family to begin with. Arguing that point pretty much states that one agrees with the incorrect assumption that a marriage license is necessary for raising a family, or that marriage is FOR raising a family at all. Thus, arguing that point when one does not believe that would be lying. Arguing that point when one does not believe that, would be perpetuating misinformation and misdirecting from the REAL issues which are personal freedom and discrimination.
    Again, you are assigning arguments to me that I have never made.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #249
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No one is arguing that marriage is necessary for procreation and/or that marriage is FOR procreation. You need to re-read the position stated. That isn't it.
    Yes, you all are if you're using the "it's for the family" argument. If you don't believe that marriage is necessary for raising children, then why would you use the "it's for the children" argument with regard to allowing gay marriage? Doesn't make sense.

  10. #250
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Think my first try at this post got eaten by the server downage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I'm uncertain why you're calling the 'core purpose' "extra conditions". Confusion perhaps? Procreation is the reason marriage is "vital to the survival of Man" and *the* reason why the state has any interest in marriage at all. If it weren't for raising children, marriage would in every way reflect any other strictly legal contract and there would be no reason for the existence of "marriage". You didn't read Skinner and Loving yet?
    Skinner says that marriage and procreation protected by the 14th amendment. This says nothing of marriage as being strictly for procreation. Loving reaffirms the right of marriage as being protected under the 14th. Again, it does not say that marriage is confined to procreative intent.

    ***
    Gay-marriage is unique in that the couple can not together procreate naturally; which is the expected outcome of marriage. Mixed races can. Polygamists can. Mixed religions can. Yet gays can not. The healthy gay couple is functionally identical to the infertile hetero couple, and no one on 'the right' is defending infertile couples in marriage for you to then point and demand the right extend that same protection.
    Not sure I follow the last there. Are you saying no one is defending an infertile couples right to marry, as it seems? I did not know any one was challenging their right to marry.

    This is ground the pro-gm folks must address. Even if you personally think this issue is tertiary, it is ground you political opponents see as vital, so you must address it.
    The only political opponent I see making a fuss over this is you. it is almost never mentioned in most conversations on gay marriage that I have seen, outside of when you bring it up. Again, I believe that most people will not oppose gay marriage for the reason of procreation, since to tie marriage strictly to procreative intent would create a change in marriage as it is in this country that I doubt people will support.

    You are not trying to win your support. You already have that.

    You are trying to win our support. Not only have you been told how to do it, but it's extremely easy. It is the argument which wins most in court. It is the argument which wins the harts of the people who vote in law at the poll. It has worked every time it has been tried that I know of.
    You are making a false assumption. I am not trying to win any ones support. Hell, I am not even trying to win an argument. I am simply debating a topic. Nothing posted on this board will make a bit of difference in the big picture. What will win gay marriage is gay people going about their lives and waiting for the tide of public opinion to finish going their way. It's an inevitability, and will not be long. Hopefully soon enough for me to go to a certain gay marriage I want to see.

    What is going to win the day for gays and their desire to marry is not debate, but being gay and out there, and being seen, more and more, as just people. The younger generations just don't see the issue like us older folks do.

    Stanch resistance to that argument is highly suspect. Why wouldn't you jump at the chance to secure swift victory?

    Hell I've already given you some arguments word for word in the Reverse Debate forums. You have no excuse.
    You are under the mistaken idea that you are the target that I want to sway. You are not. If you have all the information and tactics, you are either swayed, or not going to sway. Arguing with you is just a way to pass the time, to entertain myself, and as a mental exercise. I have learned more in the almost 3 months I have had internet back arguing with people here, looking things up, having things linked back to me.

    I do not see our activity here as "winning or losing" a debate. I think this is where CC goes wrong. It's not about winning. Usually, most people walk away from each conversation thinking they got the best of it. It's not a win or lose type thing, it's an express your opinion in the best way you can type thing.

    ---------------

    Thank god for cut and paste, and thinking to do so when I realized the time.

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