View Poll Results: Would you vote to legalize same gender marriages?

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  • Yes, I would vote to make gay marriage legal

    99 69.72%
  • No, I would vote against making gay marriage legal

    37 26.06%
  • I am undecided and wouldn't vote

    6 4.23%
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Thread: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

  1. #221
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Gay-marriage doesn't have to be *only* about children because interracial/hetero-marriage certainly is not.

    However, 'marriage' per-se is mainly about raising children. If gays can show Conservatives/blacks that their preferred flavor of marriage is also mainly about raising children, then we'll sign off on it and turn the same blind eye to all those other childless gay couples who marry as we do those childless heteros that marry.
    You are adding extra conditions to gay marriage. I doubt very much that we will need to do this to get enough support in the near future to pass gay marriage.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You are adding extra conditions to gay marriage. I doubt very much that we will need to do this to get enough support in the near future to pass gay marriage.
    He is not adding any condition. He is merely articulating a view of marriage that is larger than the two people who marry.

    It is not an uncommon view of marriage. Legalities aside, many if not most people marry to build families. In this view, marriage serves a purpose that moves an individual beyond his or her own desires and compels the consideration of others.

    Understanding that also sheds light on why a good many people oppose the rationales put forward by same sex marriage advocates. Embedded in the arguments that proceed from "I want" is a subtle dismissal and even rejection of the idea of building families and moving beyond the individual "I want."

    Jerry's point speaks to exactly that. If same sex marriage advocates would devote their energies to speaking of building families, of adopting children, of reaching beyond the individual desires, that argument will find a much more receptive audience than the current vapid crying "foul!" using a discrimination thesis that proceeds from a definition of marriage that stands at odds with the traditional understanding of the term.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    This topic is gay.

  4. #224
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Who cares? The meaning of words change all the time. What we use the word "gay" for today isn't what it meant just a few decades ago. What one culture uses a word for, such as "fag" may have an entirely different meaning in another.

    The argument from tradition is logically fallacious. All that matters is what marriage means right this second and what it means right this second in most nations is entirely secular.

    A tradition that has served humanity well, on the whole, for thousands of years in a certain form (ie male-female marriage to create families, that most often care for their children), is a tradition that should not be thrown away lightly. Unintended and negative consequences, long-term, are not implausible.

    You want civil unions? Have them, I don't care. Just leave the term "marriage" as it has been for millenia.

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  5. #225
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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    He is not adding any condition. He is merely articulating a view of marriage that is larger than the two people who marry.

    It is not an uncommon view of marriage. Legalities aside, many if not most people marry to build families. In this view, marriage serves a purpose that moves an individual beyond his or her own desires and compels the consideration of others.

    Understanding that also sheds light on why a good many people oppose the rationales put forward by same sex marriage advocates. Embedded in the arguments that proceed from "I want" is a subtle dismissal and even rejection of the idea of building families and moving beyond the individual "I want."

    Jerry's point speaks to exactly that. If same sex marriage advocates would devote their energies to speaking of building families, of adopting children, of reaching beyond the individual desires, that argument will find a much more receptive audience than the current vapid crying "foul!" using a discrimination thesis that proceeds from a definition of marriage that stands at odds with the traditional understanding of the term.
    There is a significant difference between marrying to start a family, and requiring people to plan to start a family as a condition of marriage. I don't think most people want to see procreation intent as a requirement for marriage.

    Edited to add: Oh yeah, and I have linked and quoted stats in this thread on how many gay couples would like to adopt, and how many have their own children. The numbers are not insignificant.
    Last edited by Redress; 07-05-09 at 08:22 PM.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Oh yeah, and I have linked and quoted stats in this thread on how many gay couples would like to adopt, and how many have their own children. The numbers are not insignificant.
    I am aware of this. I know of several gay couples raising children, and doing so quite well.

    Why same sex marriage advocates overlook such a potent argument to garner support for their cause is a mystery to me.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    I am aware of this. I know of several gay couples raising children, and doing so quite well.

    Why same sex marriage advocates overlook such a potent argument to garner support for their cause is a mystery to me.
    I do not think they do. After all, there was a document for me to link and draw numbers from. I just do not think it is central to our argument.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I do not think they do. After all, there was a document for me to link and draw numbers from. I just do not think it is central to our argument.
    Your argument is weaker as a consequence.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Your argument is weaker as a consequence.
    I do not think so. The hardcore "family values" types who it might appeal to the most are the same ones we are least likely to win over.

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    Re: Would you vote to legal same gender marriages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Except you're not finding anyone in this thread who is posting against polygamy, are you? In fact, everyone I've seen who has mentioned it at all said they'd have no problem with it. Are you reading a different thread or just making things up?
    So supporting gay marriage also means a person supports polygamy? That would seem your point. Maybe the Stonewalls should be more open about that to support gay marriage then leads to legalizing polygamy.

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