View Poll Results: What would you do with career politicians?

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41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Keep things as they are.

    11 26.83%
  • Eliminate them through mandatory term limits.

    27 65.85%
  • Don't know / no opinion.

    3 7.32%
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Thread: Career politicans?

  1. #61
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Really? And how are you going to stop me? In fact, who the hell are you to decide who should be able to vote and who should not?
    I am not the government, but you can look it up yourself.
    There is no right to vote in a federal election.

    You act as if it is heroic to defend people who use government to take from other people. In any other situation its called theft.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I am not the government, but you can look it up yourself.
    There is no right to vote in a federal election.

    You act as if it is heroic to defend people who use government to take from other people. In any other situation its called theft.
    I am not defending anything except the ability of people to vote, which you cannot stop. You are welcome to make yourself look foolish trying to stop it, but you won't even succeed.

  3. #63
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I am not defending anything except the ability of people to vote, which you cannot stop. You are welcome to make yourself look foolish trying to stop it, but you won't even succeed.
    Of course I won't, I can merely squash the ignorant assumption that everyone voting is a good thing.

    My reply to how to stop career politicians is to stop universal voting privileges.
    We have tried term limits and they have no real effect.

    Why is it good for everyone to be elligible vote?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #64
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Of course I won't, I can merely squash the ignorant assumption that everyone voting is a good thing.

    My reply to how to stop career politicians is to stop universal voting rights.
    We have tried term limits and they have no real effect.

    Why is it good for everyone to be elligible vote?
    You have shown zero evidence that every one voting is not a good thing, so you have not "squashed" anything.

    Because it would be worse to not allow every one to vote. Because, at some point, some one has to decide on the qualifications, and I don't trust that person to do it right. At it's most basic, the best reason to allow every one to vote is because it is less harmful than not allowing every one to vote.

    Probably a better reason to allow every one to vote is that one of the things that makes this country great is we allow every one to have a say, however small, in their government.

  5. #65
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You have shown zero evidence that every one voting is not a good thing, so you have not "squashed" anything.
    Here's a somewhat lengthy paper on the effects of giving women the privilege to vote, although I don't agree with restricting voting based on sex, it illustrates that having universal suffrage greatly effected government growth.

    The website its linked to is crap but the paper is valid.

    http://www.christianparty.net/lottonsuffrage.pdf

    If you don't trust the source you can DL it directly from here.
    SSRN-How Dramatically Did Women's Suffrage Change the Size and Scope of Government? by John Lott

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Because it would be worse to not allow every one to vote. Because, at some point, some one has to decide on the qualifications, and I don't trust that person to do it right. At it's most basic, the best reason to allow every one to vote is because it is less harmful than not allowing every one to vote.
    I'd disagree based on the findings in that paper.

    Allowing universal suffrage has caused government growth beyond reason.
    So far the majority keeps voting themselves unearned benefits from the public treasury.

    If your familiar with Alexis de Tocqueville, he states what is going on right now pretty well.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Probably a better reason to allow every one to vote is that one of the things that makes this country great is we allow every one to have a say, however small, in their government.
    Not every individuals say is worth hearing, you can say whatever you want as long as you don't make me apart of it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #66
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Senators are elected to support their state. It is completely appropriate, in that context, for them to do things that will help their state and constituents. They need not worry about others...not why they were elected.
    So the public fisc is a feeding trough where each state takes what it can, and devil take the hindmost?

    The problem with your logic is that Senators whom I did not elect (being Senators from states other than Texas) vote on ways to expropriate tax dollars originating in Texas to support their states and constituencies. Senators Kay Bailey Hutchinson and John Cornyn likewise do the same for Texas. Regardless of which state, that state's Senators seek to expropriate other states' tax dollars for their own state's benefit.

    This is a corruption of the Federal system--a systemic corruption of the Federal system--that is at the root of the angst and unfocused outrage that produced this spring's tea parties. It is, in structure and philosophy, disturbingly analogous to the "taxation without representation" that spurred the civil unrest that grew into the American Revolution.

    Term limits are one mechanism to combat that systemic corruption, and to return the government to the proper Constitutional order. By eliminating the overwhelming power of incumbency, and by injecting novice Senators and Congressmen into the equation with regularity, the power of the federal government is correspondingly diminished, and the various state governments will have power flow back to them, where it rightly belongs, under the Constitution.

    To borrow from the late Speaker of the House, Tip O' Neill: "all politics is local." In similar fashion, all government should be local, or as local as possible. All that can be done at the state level should stay at the state level, without regulation, intervention, or even assistance from the federal government. Only those matters of a truly national character should be addressed at the federal level.

    Term limits are one mechanism--and an effective mechanism--to keep government power localized.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Hmmm...are you all saying that it is important to consider the federal government in this, not just the states?
    That's hardly a revelation. Senators and Congressmen take an oath upon election to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Although their obligation is to their state and constituency, their duty has always been circumscribed by the Constitution.

    That is why it is the UNITED States.

  7. #67
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    Re: Career politicans?

    You dont need term limits, just don't vote for them.

    This is a democracy, isn't it?

  8. #68
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Here's a somewhat lengthy paper on the effects of giving women the privilege to vote, although I don't agree with restricting voting based on sex, it illustrates that having universal suffrage greatly effected government growth.

    The website its linked to is crap but the paper is valid.

    http://www.christianparty.net/lottonsuffrage.pdf

    If you don't trust the source you can DL it directly from here.
    SSRN-How Dramatically Did Women's Suffrage Change the Size and Scope of Government? by John Lott
    So you have a paper which purports to show that women voting had an effect on government. To me that is a positive, since women are effected by that government. Women should have a say in the government, and should work to shape it as they choose. You don't like the way they may have, if the paper is accurate(a scan through makes it look less than sure), changed the government, but thankfully, your opinion is not what we as a country use to decide what is good or bad.

    You have most definitely still not shown that every one having the vote is clear cut harmful, only that it may have led to a change you personally disagree with.

    I'd disagree based on the findings in that paper.

    Allowing universal suffrage has caused government growth beyond reason.
    So far the majority keeps voting themselves unearned benefits from the public treasury.

    If your familiar with Alexis de Tocqueville, he states what is going on right now pretty well.

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
    This does not address in any way what I was saying. Do you trust a government that turns almost every single action into partisan grandstanding to make good rules as to who should or should not vote?

    Not every individuals say is worth hearing, you can say whatever you want as long as you don't make me apart of it.
    I disagree. I don't agree with what every person says, but they all have a right to say it, and it is worth hearing. I am not going to be like you and think there is some sort of elite who are worthwhile.

  9. #69
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you have a paper which purports to show that women voting had an effect on government. To me that is a positive, since women are effected by that government. Women should have a say in the government, and should work to shape it as they choose. You don't like the way they may have, if the paper is accurate(a scan through makes it look less than sure), changed the government, but thankfully, your opinion is not what we as a country use to decide what is good or bad.

    You have most definitely still not shown that every one having the vote is clear cut harmful, only that it may have led to a change you personally disagree with.
    How about SS and Medicare, these programs as well as others are going to leave future generations with debt.

    Why hasn't then been addressed? In order to do so politicians would be committing political suicide. Its easier for them to promise more unearned benefits at the expense of future generations who have zero say than to fix the overall problem. How is that good? Why should should future generations pay for older generations luxuries?

    I didn't say women shouldn't have a say in government, I said that not everyone should have a say.
    The study was an example of why universal suffrage is wrong and dangerous.

    Why is it unethical and illegal for politicians to accept bribes but not voters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This does not address in any way what I was saying. Do you trust a government that turns almost every single action into partisan grandstanding to make good rules as to who should or should not vote?
    The rules are simple.

    1.You can not vote if you receive any payment, benefit, special consideration or privilege out side of voting itself.

    2.You must be a tax payer.

    No grandstanding needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I disagree. I don't agree with what every person says, but they all have a right to say it, and it is worth hearing. I am not going to be like you and think there is some sort of elite who are worthwhile.
    Its worth hearing? Are you so sure?

    Racial pejoratives, claims of false patriotism, et all are worth hearing?

    So to you, elite = people who actually sacrifice something in order to participate?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #70
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    Re: Career politicans?

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    How do you vote?

    My vote - Eliminate them entirely. Put term limits on everyone. As long as the law limits their terms, then they will be limited as to the amount of damage they can do as a result of believing that they are better than the rest of us.
    I support your sugegstion. The guys know nothing except mobbing and career making. We need more Reagans and Schwarznegers, but not career liars and blah-blah speakers.
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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