View Poll Results: Is the European Union a good thing?

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  • Yes

    21 58.33%
  • No

    15 41.67%
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Thread: Is the European Union a good thing?

  1. #111
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Forgot to mention...
    This has nothing to do with arbitrary anything.
    YOU claimed that the proposal was arbitrary.

    It has to do with all people having a fair shake in the government they live under.
    It has MORE to do with people not being able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society.

    Why do you want a certain group of people to be able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?

    Everyone should have a voice.
    All you have to do to have that voice is give as much as or more than you take.

  2. #112
    King Of The Dog Pound

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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    1: Your "sole purpose" statement is incorrect, as has been demonstrated
    2. No ones 'worth" is defined by the money they pay in taxes by this proposal; the proposal does not judge the worth of the person, but the propriety of allowing somene to use his political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society.
    Yes I have. What is a vote if not to put forth your own agenda? Again you are trying to restrict another's right to have a voice in their government by how much welfare they collect in whatever form including unemployment insurance vs the taxes they pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No...
    One is a direct, quantifiable benefit pad to an individual by the government compared to the direct, quantifiable contribution paid TO the government by that individual; the other is an indirect, unquantifiable benefit provided to everyone by the givernment.
    Thats only remotely similar; it is by no means "exactly the same".
    It is the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Please: Provide the quote of you doing this.

    Then answer the question:
    Why do you want a certain group of people to be able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?
    They have the same opportunity and one vote as everyone else, period.

    This does not give them anymore power or ability than anyone else.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-26-09 at 12:56 PM.


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  3. #113
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    YOU claimed that the proposal was arbitrary.
    It is, but that is not the focus of my argument and you know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It has MORE to do with people not being able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society.
    Someone being able to vote is not at the expense of society. It is what makes us a society where people are supposed to have a voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Why do you want a certain group of people to be able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?
    I want every citizen of the US to have a voice in our government. To silence one group or another goes against the very fabric of what the US is supposed to represent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    All you have to do to have that voice is give as much as or more than you take.
    True freedom has no such restriction.


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  4. #114
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes I have.
    Yes you have... what?

    What is a vote if not to put forth your own agenda?
    The issue isnt agenda, the issue is using political power for personal benefit at the expense of society.

    Again you are trying to restrict another's right to have a voice in their government by how much welfare they collect in whatever form including unemployment insurance vs the taxes they pay.
    Yes... for the perfeclty legitimate reasons stated - that people should not be able to use their political power for ther own personal gian, at the cost of the rest of society.

    It is the same.
    I have demonstrated otherwise.

    They have the same opportunity and one vote as everyone else, period.
    This dies not give them anymore power or ability than anyone else.
    You did not answer my question.

  5. #115
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It is...
    Then show how it is more arbitrary than the other restrictions placed on the right to vote.

    Someone being able to vote is not at the expense of society
    No... but taking from society more than you give to it (which is the issue here ) is.

    It is what makes us a society where people are supposed to have a voice.
    Are we supposed to be able to use our political power to benefit ourselves at the expense of others?

    I want every citizen of the US to have a voice in our government. To silence one group or another goes against the very fabric of what the US is supposed to represent.
    And yet, you agree that the right to vote does not apply to everyone.

    True freedom has no such restriction.
    True freedom also means that people cannot force you to give them the means necessary to promote their own self-interest.

  6. #116
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then show how it is more arbitrary than the other restrictions placed on the right to vote.
    The other restrictions outside of the felony law restrict no one who is an adult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No... but taking from society more than you give to it (which is the issue here ) is.
    What someone takes or gives is not really anyones business but their own unless they infringe on someone else's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Are we supposed to be able to use our political power to benefit ourselves at the expense of others?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And yet, you agree that the right to vote does not apply to everyone.
    If they are not a citizen or underage, no it does not. Has nothing to do with your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    True freedom also means that people cannot force you to give them the means necessary to promote their own self-interest.
    And yet a vote is nothing more than self interest when you get right down to it. You would stifle someones right to vote based purely on some kind of monetary loss or gain from the government.

    Sorry, still does not float.


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  7. #117
    User lunecat's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    luners mate do you think I do not sympathize with your sentiments a bit.

    Dont forget my Serbian mother in law and my Croatian father in law were in there house in Drnis when the Serbian Tanks rolled over the hills at the back of the house.

    I do not wish to talk of the atrocities that happened in Drnis and Knin then or when General Ante Golovina returned to drive the Serbs out.

    I was in Serbia last year the Pizda's are becoming harder to find, the majority of the young like in Northern Ireland want peace and prosperity, should we deny them this because of the sins of there ancestors, that game is entreched in the black heart of Balkan Nationalists.

    Has our royal family not met with the Japanese royal family, is Germany not part of th EU, should we deny the Turks because of what the ottermans did.

    Paisley sits with McGuinness and Adams
    I see what you are saying - but none of the examples other than maybe the Japanese applies to the Serbs, because as like the Serbs there has never been any recognition of their guilt and war crimes committed.

    Serbs always attempt to blame others for all terrible crimes committed by the Serbian people and their militia. And until they collectively admit their guilt then they will be held as a nation collectively repsonsible and still yet to atone for their crimes!

    So Serbia must never be permitted into the EU, infact ship the lot of them out of Europe and back to Russia where they belong.....

    I think it was an editorial in your favouried Guardian newspaper that wrote something along the lines of :

    "The air of Europe would be much improved if the nation of Serbia could be towed into the medeterian and sunk"
    Last edited by lunecat; 06-28-09 at 10:02 AM.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    The benefits of the EU far outweigh the negatives of the EU.... for now at least.
    PeteEU

  9. #119
    DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The benefits of the EU far outweigh the negatives of the EU.... for now at least.
    Indeed, "for now" is the correct way to say it.
    Because in the long term, it is a disaster.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

  10. #120
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Indeed, "for now" is the correct way to say it.
    Because in the long term, it is a disaster.
    Not so. If that were true then all great unions would be a disaster, and I doubt you would call the US a disaster... well at least yet.
    PeteEU

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