View Poll Results: Is the European Union a good thing?

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  • Yes

    21 58.33%
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    15 41.67%
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Thread: Is the European Union a good thing?

  1. #101
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I already have...
    No.. That's the statement you made. Reastating your statement does not support your statement.

    The definition of fascism you provided doesn't support the idea that your statement is an example of fascism, as the proposal under discussion...
    -is not authoritarian
    -is not nationalist
    -has nothing to do with a corporatist economy
    -has nothing to do with the ideologies associated with the above

    The sole purpose of such a law would be to give one group of people power over another, period.
    No... the sole purpose of the law is to make sure that a certain group of people does not use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society. Period.
    THAT is a good idea. Period.

    This country would no longer be a Representative Republic. It would put us on the road to a Fascist state.
    Not according to your definition of fascism.

    The US Constitution says that each citizen gets 1 vote...
    The US Constitiution does not say EVERYONE gets one vote; as you have agreed, some people can be prohibited from voting.

    ...regardless of how much money he or she makes, period.
    Strawman:
    The proposal in question does not rest upon income; no one with $0 in income is necessarily barred from voting.

    Now add the voting rights legislation in 1965 and Constitutionally it fails.
    The VRA doesnt define the Constitution. There are numerous Constituionally valid restructions on who can vote; to argue that a restriction on who can vote, in and of itself violates the Constitution is unsupportable.

    No it's not. It is nothing but a power play to silence the poor.
    No, its to make sure that a certain group of people does not use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society
    How is that NOT a good idea?
    You WANT a certain group of people to be able to their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?
    THAT is a good idea?

    Yes it is, so what?
    How is it more arbitrary that limiting voting age to 18?

  2. #102
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I think that is a really bad idea. The National Voting Rights Act of 1965 pretty much agrees.
    A disagreement supported by an appeal to authority, hence illogical.

    I don't think voting should be based on anything other than being a citizen and not convicted of a felony.
    So, you do not believe in restricting a person's ability to vote unless you think it's okay? Arbitrary much?

    All that would come of this is tyranny of one group over another.
    That's what we have right now - a system where net tax-consumers utilize government proxy to relieve net tax-payers of their hard-earned money.

    Taxes used as a weapon against the poor. Again this is a really bad idea.
    Your entire premise presupposes that a poor person HAS to become indebted to society. If their "right" to vote is so important to them then they can simply choose not to receive government assistance. If they wish to live off the largesse of society then they should be obligated to sacrifice something.

    You want MY money? Fine, then give me your vote, and while you're living off MY hard-earned dollar you can let ME figure things out for you. Don't like the sound of that? Then don't walk into the god-damned unemployment office with your hand out...

  3. #103
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    I can sum this up right now.

    In this country we do not have a plebeian system. A persons worth to society can not be summed up by any monetary amount, and should not be.

    If you think in this case you are correct, let me propose this: You have not served in the military, you have not given enough to society, and have reaped the benefits of my service. So you should not be able to vote until such time as you do serve.

    Now my statement above is unreasonable, and just as unreasonable as what you suppose.


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  4. #104
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I can sum this up right now.
    In this country we do not have a plebeian system. A persons worth to society can not be summed up by any monetary amount, and should not be.
    Strawman:
    Nothing here discusses, concerns, or revolves around a persons' worth.

    You have not served in the military, you have not given enough to society, and have reaped the benefits of my service.
    Strawman, red herring, non-sequitur:
    The issue here is direct benefit of an individual though government payment versus direct contribution to the goverment via taxation. Indirect benefit of a society though ann indirect contribution my a number of the members of that society is a seperate, and non-comparable, issue.

    Now my statement above is unreasonable...
    Its also not comparative in any relevant way.

    and just as unreasonable as what you suppose.
    You still have not explained how the proposal is any more arbitrary tna limiting the voting age to 18+

    Why do you want a certain group of people to be able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 06-26-09 at 12:29 PM.

  5. #105
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Strawman:
    Nothing here discusses, concerns, or revolves around a persons' worth.
    Yes it does and I quote...

    "the sole purpose of the law is to make sure that a certain group of people does not use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society. Period."

    Worth meaning monetary input into society through taxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Strawman, red herring, non-sequitur:
    The issue here is direct benefit of an individual though government payment versus direct contribution to the goverment via taxation. Indirect benefit of a society though ann indirect contribution my a number of the members of that society is a seperate, and non-comparable, issue.


    Its also not comparative in any relevant way.
    Bull. It is exactly the same. Because you have served you should not be able to vote because you have reaped the benefit of my service to my country.

    Yes it is exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You still have not explained how the proposal is any more arbitrary tna limiting the voting age to 18+
    Yes I have.


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  6. #106
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I can sum this up right now.
    All you've summed up with the preceding monologue is your inability to logically rebut the points I've made.

  7. #107
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Strawman:
    You still have not explained how the proposal is any more arbitrary tna limiting the voting age to 18+
    Forgot to mention...

    This has nothing to do with arbitrary anything. It has to do with all people having a fair shake in the government they live under.

    Everyone should have a voice. Like I said I disagree that felons after serving their sentence are still not allowed to vote as being unfair. Why would I think this type of thing would be any less a breach of liberty?
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-26-09 at 12:46 PM.


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  8. #108
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    All you've summed up with the preceding monologue is your inability to logically rebut the points I've made.
    Until we live under a plebeian system you have no point really.

    I have already covered most of what you said in preceding posts. No need to retype all of it.


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  9. #109
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes it does and I quote...

    "the sole purpose of the law is to make sure that a certain group of people does not use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society. Period."

    Worth meaning monetary input into society through taxes.
    1: Your "sole purpose" statement is incorrect, as has been demonstrated
    2. No ones 'worth" is defined by the money they pay in taxes by this proposal; the proposal does not judge the worth of the person, but the propriety of allowing somene to use his political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society.

    Bull. It is exactly the same.
    No...
    One is a direct, quantifiable benefit pad to an individual by the government compared to the direct, quantifiable contribution paid TO the government by that individual; the other is an indirect, unquantifiable benefit provided to everyone by the givernment.
    Thats only remotely similar; it is by no means "exactly the same".

    You still have not explained how the proposal is any more arbitrary than limiting the voting age to 18+
    Yes I have.
    Please: Provide the quote of you doing this.

    Then answer the question:
    Why do you want a certain group of people to be able to use their political power to further advance their own self-interest at the expense of the rest of society?

  10. #110
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Until we live under a plebeian system you have no point really.

    I have already covered most of what you said in preceding posts. No need to retype all of it.
    You haven't rebutted anything I said, but if you want to pretend like you have then, by all means, don't let reality get in your way.

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