View Poll Results: Is the European Union a good thing?

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  • Yes

    21 58.33%
  • No

    15 41.67%
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Thread: Is the European Union a good thing?

  1. #91
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    You have put forth conditions you would like to see on a right. Either is is a right or it is not. So which is it?
    Wait...
    Since when has a liberal thought there was anything wrong with that?
    One condition to the right to vote is that you be an adult.
    One condition to the right to vote (in most places) is that you not be a felon.
    One contition to the right to vote is that you be a US citizen
    One condition to the right to vote (in most places) is that you provide ID
    One contition to the rightt to vote (in most places) is that you register.
    Given your post, I presume you oppose these conditions...?

    So you think it would be OK to take away someones right because they are not paying taxes? How fascist of you.
    Not paying taxes in no way necessarily means that your right to vote would be taken away. You either do not understand the concept before you or you're deliberatly creating straw men that you can beat up.

    Women and slaves are the only difference...
    Better look again, sport.
    In 1790, only white male adult property-owners had the right to vote.

  2. #92
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Wait...
    Since when has a liberal thought there was anything wrong with that?
    One condition to the right to vote is that you be an adult.
    One condition to the right to vote (in most places) is that you not be a felon.
    One contition to the right to vote is that you be a US citizen
    One condition to the right to vote (in most places) is that you provide ID
    One contition to the rightt to vote (in most places) is that you register.
    Given your post, I presume you oppose these conditions...?
    Did you read my previous post? Since when is this a liberal/conservative issue? Rights are rights.

    Minors have restricted rights.
    Conviction of a felony forfeits your rights in many cases including the 2nd amendment. I don't agree with it, but it is the way it is.
    Yes I mentioned the citizen and felony earlier. So what?
    Yes providing ID to prevent voter fraud is common sense and reasonable.
    Registering to vote is again a common sense issue.
    No I don't because they are reasonable, unlike what you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not paying taxes in no way necessarily means that your right to vote would be taken away. You either do not understand the concept before you or you're deliberatly creating straw men that you can beat up.
    "Implement a new policy which prohibits net tax consumers from voting. If you are living off the largesse of society you've no right to dictate the manner in which it governs." - Ethereal

    Not hard to understand at all.

    I know fascism when I see it.


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  3. #93
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Did you read my previous post? Since when is this a liberal/conservative issue? Rights are rights.
    And so, you -do- agree that rights can be restrcited.
    Thanks.

    Implement a new policy which prohibits net tax consumers from voting. If you are living off the largesse of society you've no right to dictate the manner in which it governs.
    Not hard to understand at all.
    Then why do you keep making statements that do not reflect that issue or any understanding of it?

    Contrary to those statements:
    -There is NO minimum income requirement
    -Being on welfare does NOT necessarily exclude you
    -Not paying taxes does NOT necessarily exclude you

    And so, none of your complaints, thus far, have anything to do with the actual issue at hand.

    I know fascism when I see it.
    If you think this proposal is fascism -- then no, you don't.

    (I also note you dropped the 'applause' thing pretty quick)

  4. #94
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    And so, you -do- agree that rights can be restrcited.
    Thanks.
    How does this:

    "Did you read my previous post? Since when is this a liberal/conservative issue? Rights are rights. - Blackdog

    Translate into my agreeing to anything other than it is not a partisan issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then why do you keep making statements that do not reflect that issue or any understanding of it?

    Contrary to those statements:
    -There is NO minimum income requirement
    -Being on welfare does NOT necessarily exclude you
    -Not paying taxes does NOT necessarily exclude you

    And so, none of your complaints, thus far, have anything to do with the actual issue at hand.
    Necessarily:

    1 : of necessity : unavoidably
    2 : as a logical result or consequence

    Hmmm... looks like necessarily does not mean "can't" so my statements most certainly do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    If you think this proposal is fascism -- then no, you don't.
    "Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a severe authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology."

    If the shoe fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    (I also note you dropped the 'applause' thing pretty quick)
    Now the old stand by fallacy and ad-hom. I guess it had nothing to do with the fact his words are the only thing quoted and not your reply.

    Can we now get back on topic?


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  5. #95
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    How does this:
    "Did you read my previous post? Since when is this a liberal/conservative issue? Rights are rights. - Blackdog
    Translate into my agreeing to anything other than it is not a partisan issue.
    But you DO agree that rights can be restricted - partisan or not.

    Necessarily:
    1 : of necessity : unavoidably
    2 : as a logical result or consequence
    Hmmm... looks like necessarily does not mean "can't" so my statements most certainly do.
    No. They dont.

    If you added a "could" or "might" to your statements, then you's have somethng -- but your statements, as posted, are absolute declaratives, not condistional declaratives.

    And so, none of your complaints, thus far, have anything to do with the actual issue at hand.

    Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a severe authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.
    If the shoe fits.
    Hmm...

    The proposal under discussion:
    -is not authoritarian
    -is not nationalist
    -has nothing to do with a corporatist economy
    -has nothing to do with the ideologies associated with the above

    How does the definition you supplied here in any way coincide with the issue at hand?

    Now the old stand by fallacy and ad-hom.
    There's no fallacy or ah hom in my statement.
    You dropped the 'applause' issue when you were shown to be wrong.

    Can we now get back on topic?
    Seems to me that we have been on-topic, in as much as we could be, with you not having a clear understanding of what was being discussed.

  6. #96
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    But you DO agree that rights can be restricted - partisan or not.

    No. They dont.

    If you added a "could" or "might" to your statements, then you's have somethng -- but your statements, as posted, are absolute declaratives, not condistional declaratives.

    And so, none of your complaints, thus far, have anything to do with the actual issue at hand.


    Hmm...

    The proposal under discussion:
    -is not authoritarian
    -is not nationalist
    -has nothing to do with a corporatist economy
    -has nothing to do with the ideologies associated with the above

    How does the definition you supplied here in any way coincide with the issue at hand?


    There's no fallacy or ah hom in my statement.
    You dropped the 'applause' issue when you were shown to be wrong.


    Seems to me that we have been on-topic, in as much as we could be, with you not having a clear understanding of what was being discussed.
    It's a fascist ideal to restrict someones voting rights based on the ability of them to pay taxes to make up for welfare or anything like that.

    End of story.

    In reality what you have here is a system that arbitrarily places the input one can have on government at the mercy of net tax vs unemployment or welfare etc.

    Really stupid idea.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 06-25-09 at 03:14 PM.


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  7. #97
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    It's a fascist ideal to restrict someones voting rights based on the ability of them to pay taxes to make up for welfare or anything like that.
    End of story.
    Not according to the definition of fascism that you supplied.
    End of story.

    In reality what you have here is a system that arbitrarily places the input one can have on government at the mercy of net tax vs unemployment or welfare etc.
    Its not arbitrary at all -- it is designed to prevent those who get the most from and give the least to the citizenry in general from using their voting power to make sure this will always be the case.

    That's a really SMART idea.

  8. #98
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not according to the definition of fascism that you supplied.
    End of story.
    Yes according to my definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Its not arbitrary at all -- it is designed to prevent those who get the most from and give the least to the citizenry in general from using their voting power to make sure this will always be the case.

    That's a really SMART idea.
    Yes it is and would do nothing but disenfranchise a large section of minority voters. It would also disenfranchise a large section of white voters as well, but it would not have nearly the impact.

    Good thing they passed the voting rights legislation in 1965 to stop stupid idea's like this one in it's tracks.


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  9. #99
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes according to my definition.
    Expalin how.

    Yes it is and would do nothing but disenfranchise a large section of minority voters. It would also disenfranchise a large section of white voters as well, but it would not have nearly the impact.
    It would disenfranchise anyone that gets the most from and give the least to the citizenry in general from using their voting power to make sure this will always be the case. That's a good thing.

    There nothing more arbitrary in that than limiting the age to 18.

  10. #100
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    Re: Is the European Union a good thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Expalin how.
    I already have...

    "It's a fascist ideal to restrict someones voting rights based on the ability of them to pay taxes to make up for welfare or anything like that."

    The sole purpose of such a law would be to give one group of people power over another, period. This country would no longer be a Representative Republic. It would put us on the road to a Fascist state.

    The US Constitution says that each citizen gets 1 vote, regardless of how much money he or she makes, period.

    Now add the voting rights legislation in 1965 and Constitutionally it fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It would disenfranchise anyone that gets the most from and give the least to the citizenry in general from using their voting power to make sure this will always be the case. That's a good thing.
    No it's not. It is nothing but a power play to silence the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    There nothing more arbitrary in that than limiting the age to 18.
    Yes it is, so what? You can't have children who have limited rights to begin with voting.

    This amounts to nothing more than a red-herring.


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