View Poll Results: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

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  • Yes, it is an implied power

    26 81.25%
  • No, it is not mentioned in the Constitution

    2 6.25%
  • Other/Don't know

    4 12.50%
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Thread: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

  1. #21
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    So Congress can create a branch of service, as long as they initially create this new branch under the umbrella of a current branch and then re-organize it to it's own branch?
    Um.... no.
    I believe I said just the opposite?

  2. #22
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Um.... no.
    I believe I said just the opposite?
    You actually answered indirectly, which is why I asked again.

    What is taken into consideration when considering the equality of branches compared to the Army and Navy? Is it usage of the branch or numbers enlisted?

    Enlisted numbers
    Army - 456k
    Navy- 276k
    Air Force - 261k
    Marines - 180k

    Air Force is quite close to being bigger then the Navy in terms of size.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    You actually answered indirectly, which is why I asked again.
    Um... OK...

    What is taken into consideration when considering the equality of branches compared to the Army and Navy? Is it usage of the branch or numbers enlisted?
    The size of the servise is meaningless -- the 'equality' of the branches lies in terms of its organization under the department of defense. Each branch has its own department and secretary, etc; in those terms, each branch is equal.

    That's why the USMC isnt a branch of the US military -- it is a service under the department of the navy.

  4. #24
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Um... OK...


    The size of the servise is meaningless -- the 'equality' of the branches lies in terms of its organization under the department of defense. Each branch has its own department and secretary, etc; in those terms, each branch is equal.

    That's why the USMC isnt a branch of the US military -- it is a service under the department of the navy.
    So a military group (such as the Air Force or Marines) could be bigger and more powerful then both the Army and Navy, just as long as it's placed accordingly in the official organizational chart?
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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  5. #25
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    So a military group (such as the Air Force or Marines) could be bigger and more powerful then both the Army and Navy, just as long as it's placed accordingly in the official organizational chart?
    The issue is the constitutionality of the creation of the force itself.
    If you create an organization as an equal to the the two branches of the military described by the Constitution without the specific power to do so explicitly stated in the Constitition, then your action is unconstitutional.

  6. #26
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Under which of the "foregoing powers" was the USAF created?
    As I said, the US Air Force was created by the Elastic Clause (Article I, Section VIII of the Constitution). Sometimes called the "Necessary and Proper Clause", Congress has the power to do whatever is "necessary and proper" to carry out its enumerated powers and, crucially, all others vested in it. For more details about the elastic clause, here's a link you may enjoy reading if Constitutional law is your thing: FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article I: Annotations pg. 44 of 58

    Under this, the Air Force is a Constitutional organization.

  7. #27
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The issue is the constitutionality of the creation of the force itself.
    If you create an organization as an equal to the the two branches of the military described by the Constitution without the specific power to do so explicitly stated in the Constitition, then your action is unconstitutional.
    I get that but is it unconstitutional of the branch was originally part of the Army or Navy, is reorganized as a separate branch later and becomes equal or greater then the Army or Navy?

    Technically is wasn't created as a organization equal to. It was re-organized become equal over time.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Why do I suspect we won't have the libertarian crowd calling for the disbanding or reorganization of the Air Force?
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  9. #29
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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    As I said, the US Air Force was created by the Elastic Clause (Article I, Section VIII of the Constitution). Sometimes called the "Necessary and Proper Clause", Congress has the power to do whatever is "necessary and proper" to carry out its enumerated powers....
    Yes... and as I asked:

    Which of the "foregoing" enumerated powers allow for the creation of the Air Force?

    I use the term "foregoing" as that is the term used in the clause itself, though you clearly understand that the term refers to the enumerated powers listed elsewhere in Article I Section 8.

    I find it rather amusing, you trying to lecture me on the Elastic Clause.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 06-23-09 at 09:21 AM.

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    Re: Is the U.S. Air Force Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I get that but is it unconstitutional of the branch was originally part of the Army or Navy, is reorganized as a separate branch later and becomes equal or greater then the Army or Navy?

    Technically is wasn't created as a organization equal to. It was re-organized become equal over time.
    None of that matters -- you cannot create it as a branch of the military, equal to the army and navy, throught any means, w/o the Constitutionally mandated power to do so.

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