Where Should We Cut Spending

Redress said:

Kids, this is about cutting spending please. Could we please try and stay kinda on that topic.

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sazerac said:

I know we pay for welfare but unemployment insurance is paid by the employer. No? The more your employees wind up unemployed the higher your rate.

Government revenues are a function of GDP. So we should do what is necessary to increase GDP.

I can't really cut any spending because it will make my constituents mad at me.

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stekim said:

That may be true of you, but I'm no novice on political boards. Most people still drink the Kool Aid. But yes, many conservatives have gotten frustrated. But most, including Rush, haven't left the party. Hell, Rush IS the party.

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stekim said:

Libertarians care far more about liberty than Conservatives do. The two may agree on a great many fiscal issues, but Libertarians lack that special "we know better than you what's good for you" streak conservatives tend to have.

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sazerac said:

I know we pay for welfare but unemployment insurance is paid by the employer. No? The more your employees wind up unemployed the higher your rate.

Government revenues are a function of GDP. So we should do what is necessary to increase GDP.

I can't really cut any spending because it will make my constituents mad at me.

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Jerry said:

When Libertarians drop the whole "legalize all hard drug for recreational use" and "legalize prostitution" gigs, then and only then will I hear smack about Conservative _v_ Libertarian.

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stekim said:

No smack. One walks the walk and the other pays it lip service. Which is why conservatives are in the GOP. They have that common. Lip service to principles. But it's OK. You are what you are. Even if that's a hypocrite.

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stekim said:

No smack. One walks the walk and the other pays it lip service. Which is why conservatives are in the GOP. They have that common. Lip service to principles. But it's OK. You are what you are. Even if that's a hypocrite.

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TheHat said:

Wow, calling someone a hypocrit.

Is that like, the formal smackdown of the century or what?

So your no hypocrit there stekim? I am pretty sure if we dig through the lives of everyone here, we can find everyone to be a hypocrit.

So lets just stop the retarded name calling?

Libertarians are no more perfect then the R's or the D's.

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Redress said:

Topic, please stick to the topic...

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Dav said:

So in other words, everyone who is not an extremist is a hypocrite?

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

The Constitution is a pretty good guide to what the government is actually allowed to do, so let's look at this chart I borrowed from Dav and see how much we could save if we obeyed the law.

Socialist Security isn't allowed, that's 21%
Medicare gets the boot, that's 14%
WTF is "income security". Sayonara, income security, that's 13% more.
Health? Clearly not a federal issue under the Constitution. Save 10%
Education, etc? No, not the feds' problem. Save 3% more.

So that's...21+14+13+10+3 = 61% of budget is unconstitutional off the top.

Add in a few percent, probably half, for the military that's being abused right now, for a another 10%, and we could hack off 3/4 of the US budget merely by obeying the law, and pay down the national debt fairly quickly.

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Jerry said:

When Libertarians drop the whole "legalize all hard drug for recreational use" and "legalize prostitution" gigs, then and only then will I hear smack about Conservative _v_ Libertarian.

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tlmorg02 said:

You could not be elected to the position of dog catcher on a platform like that! Remember, old people vote more than young people. They will run anyone who gets close to medicare or social security out of town on a rail.

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

You're right.

Better appoint me dictator for a couple of decades.

Every republic fails once the populace learns they can vote themselves largesse from the treasury.

The modern world doesn't change this.

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tlmorg02 said:

You are correct. Old people run this country, and until we can get younger people to vote in greater numbers, they are going to hold us hostage.

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

why?

The difference between a "conservative" (an undefined term) and a libertarian, a clearly defined term, is that "conservatives" are still collectivists that seek to control what a person does with their body, even when those actions harm nothing but that body.

Legalize prostitution....the worst societal impact it will have is cleaner street corners and emptier jails.

Legalize drugs, again, the issue will be empty jails.

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

why?

The difference between a "conservative" (an undefined term) and a libertarian, a clearly defined term, is that "conservatives" are still collectivists that seek to control what a person does with their body, even when those actions harm nothing but that body.

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Legalize prostitution....the worst societal impact it will have is cleaner street corners and emptier jails.

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Legalize drugs, again, the issue will be empty jails.

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stekim said:

Give the man a cigar. To a typical conservative freedom means "you can do it your own way, as long as it's done just how I say". They are for small government except when it comes to restricting other people's freedom.

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Jerry said:

Again, drop the lies and deliberate misrepresentations and we can have a conversation worth more than a Basement thread :2wave:

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stekim said:

What lies?

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stekim said:

That's exactly what conservatives believe and do. Which is why so many of us will not sign up. I don't have the stomach to play Nanny.

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Conservatism is a relativistic term used to describe political philosophies that favor traditional values, where "tradition" refers to religious, cultural, or nationally defined beliefs and customs. The term is derived from the Latin, conservâre, to conserve; "to keep, guard, observe". Since different cultures have different established values, conservatives in different cultures have different goals. Some conservatives seek to preserve the status quo, while others seek to return to the values of an earlier time, the status quo ante.
Samuel Francis defined authentic conservatism as “the survival and enhancement of a particular people and its institutionalized cultural expressions.” Roger Scruton calls it “maintenance of the social ecology” and “the politics of delay, the purpose of which is to maintain in being, for as long as possible, the life and health of a social organism.”

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Liberalism refers to a broad array of related doctrines, ideologies, philosophical views, and political traditions which advocate individual liberty. Liberalism has its roots in the Western Age of Enlightenment, but the term has taken on different meanings in different time periods.
Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected. In modern society, liberals favor a liberal democracy with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed.
Many new liberals advocate a greater degree of government influence in the free market to protect individual rights (in a broad sense), often in the form of anti-discrimination laws, universal education, and progressive taxation. This philosophy frequently extends to a belief that the government should provide for a degree of general welfare, including benefits for the unemployed, housing for the homeless, and medical care for the sick. Such publicly-funded initiatives in the market are rejected as interference by modern advocates of classical liberalism, which emphasizes free private enterprise, individual property rights and freedom of contract; classical liberals hold that economic inequality, as arising naturally from competition in the free market, does not justify the violation of private property rights.

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In politics, right-wing, the political right, and the right are terms used in the spectrum of Left-Right Politics, and much like the opposite appellation of Left-wing, it has a broad variety of definitions: the same name can, in politics, sometimes mean different things. However, it is generally used to refer to the segments of the political spectrum often associated with any of several strains of conservatism, monarchism, fascism, libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism, reactionism, some forms of populism, the religious right, nationalism, militarism, realism or simply the opposite of left-wing politics.

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In politics, centrism usually refers to the political ideal of promoting moderate policies which land in the middle ground between different political extremes.
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An alternate definition is to assume that the two poles in question (e.g., Left/Right) are well-defined, and then define as 'centrist' any position which the Left considers too far Right and the Right considers too far Left, and define as a 'Centrist' any person who self-identifies more with those positions than either the Left or the Right. The weakness in this argument is that it is difficult to unambiguously and objectively define both poles at once, but that difficulty affects all political definitions, not just centrists.

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In politics, a moderate is an individual who holds the middle position between those generally classified as being left-wing, liberal, or socialist and those seen as right-wing, conservative, or capitalist. An alternate definition, and one widely held among swing voters, is that a moderate is one who has firm convictions on all issues, yet some convictions fall just to the left of the spectrum and some fall just to the right.
Political moderates usually seek conciliation between the views of various political parties, and often take positions partially derived from opposite views. For example, political moderates might not support the end of private property in the way advocated by Marxists, but they also might not support laissez-faire capitalism.
Some political moderates are "bi-polar" in the sense that they side with right-wingers on certain classes of issues, but with left-wingers on others, rather than consistently staking out intermediate positions across the board. In the United States, however, the term "libertarian" is often used to denote those who hold fiscal-conservative views on economic issues such as taxes and welfare, but are liberal on social and moral issues like abortion and gay rights. A person holding views opposite to this on both counts—taking a liberal interventionist stand on economic issues while lining up with the conservatives socially and morally—is sometimes characterized as a "communitarian."
"Moderate" is by definition a relative term, since the position considered moderate depends on the nature of the two (or more) competing ideologies that the moderates are trying to conciliate. As such, the moderates in one country often do not share the views of moderates in other countries. Even within the same country or community, the position considered "moderate" changes over time. For example, in the Southern United States during the first half of the 19th century, supporting slavery was considered a sensible and moderate view to hold. Today, in the same geographical area, supporting slavery is considered dangerous and unacceptable extremism.

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In politics, the left-wing, the political left, and the left are terms used in the spectrum of Left-Right politics, defined as against the political right and associated, to varying degrees, with social (as opposed to classical) liberalism, progressivism, American liberalism, some forms of populism, social democracy, socialism, communism, syndicalism, some forms of anarchism, communalism, communitarianism, and green politics.
The left is generally secular. However, in some Roman Catholic countries there is a tradition of Liberation theology which focuses upon "social justice", and in most Protestant countries there is a tradition of Christian Socialism. Religion and left-wing politics have sometimes been allies, for example in the U.S. civil rights movement, and sometimes opponents, for example regarding legalized abortion.
Those on the left view themselves as "progressive", on the side of social progress and openness to change.

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In politics, an independent is a politician who is not affiliated with any political party. In countries with a two-party system, independents may hold a centrist viewpoint between the two parties, or may feel that neither of the two parties adequately represents their viewpoint.
Other independent candidates are associated with a political party and may be former members of it, but are not able to stand under its label. For instance, after being expelled from the Labour Party but before joining the Respect Coalition, British Member of Parliament (MP) George Galloway described himself as "Independent Labour".
A third category of independents are those who may belong to or support a political party but believe they should not formally represent it and thus be subject to its policies. This was common among members of most political parties for the purpose of British local government elections until the last quarter of the twentieth century.

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Libertarianism is a political philosophy maintaining that all persons are the absolute owners of their own lives, and should be free to do whatever they wish with their persons or property, provided they allow others the same liberty and avoid abusing their liberty. Broadly speaking, there are two types of libertarians: consequentialists and rights theorists. Rights theorists hold that it is morally imperative that all human interaction, including government interaction with private individuals, should be voluntary and consensual. They maintain that the initiation of force by any person or government, against another person or their property — with "force" meaning the use of physical force, the threat of it, or the commission of fraud against someone — who has not initiated physical force, threat, or fraud, is a violation of that principle. This form of libertarianism is associated with Objectivists, as well as with individualist anarchists who believe opposition to the state is consistent with this principle.
Consequentialist libertarians do not have a moral prohibition against "initiation of force," but believe that allowing a very large scope of political and economic liberty results in the maximum well-being or efficiency for a society - even if protecting this liberty involves some initiation of force by government. However, such governmental actions are limited in the free society consequentialists envision. This type of libertarianism is associated with Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, and Friedrich Hayek. Some writers who have been called libertarians have also been referred to as classical liberals, by others or themselves. Also, some use the phrase "the freedom philosophy" to refer to libertarianism, classical liberalism, or both.
Libertarians generally do not oppose force used in response to initiatory aggressions such as violence, fraud or trespassing. Libertarians favor an ethic of self-responsibility and strongly oppose conscription and the welfare state, because they believe coercing someone to provide charity and military service is ethically wrong, ultimately counter-productive, or both.

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