View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #81
    Advisor Glücksritter's Avatar
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Racists in every walk of life, besides it's not like it was stated by someone from a credible country [No offence to Brazil]
    Pardon me, may I laugh?

    If he had taken another scapegoat, let's say Jews, there would have been consequences, at least serious reactions from the Western world.

    Lula knows, which group he has to blame for the crisis that the Western World wonn't do anything. In what way is Brazil not credible?
    Rather dead than red!

  2. #82
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glücksritter View Post
    I think the second is the link which is in English. It is about White men with blue eyes which created the finance crisis.
    Right, but this part is weird you see. The Brazilian President was the one who said the financial crisis was created by white people with blue eyes. You'll also notice the Brazilian president is white, so he has just basically victimized himself. Then again, he doesnt have blue eyes.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  3. #83
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    besides it's not like it was stated by someone from a credible country [No offence to Brazil]


    True, True
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  4. #84
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    [QUOTE=Glücksritter;1058083390]If he had taken another scapegoat, let's say Jews, there would have been consequences, at least serious reactions from the Western world.[QUOTE]

    I agree with you but the Brazilian president is white and anti-semitism is a crime, which is why it would have had serious consequences, but i get where you are going with this, but you cant say your argument is credible since it came out of a white mans mouth.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  5. #85
    Advisor Glücksritter's Avatar
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Right, but this part is weird you see. The Brazilian President was the one who said the financial crisis was created by white people with blue eyes. You'll also notice the Brazilian president is white, so he has just basically victimized himself. Then again, he doesnt have blue eyes.
    Why do you think he mentioned the blue eyes? Of course the good Brazil of Portuguese or Italian origin wasn't the subject to create hate against.
    Rather dead than red!

  6. #86
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    I don't see what point you're bringing up about Sudan since it is clear it is not a democracy. It would be like me asking you how much democracy exists in the PRC?
    My point was your play on words. Stating that it is democratic to want Sharia is a contradiction in definitions since once Sharia is instituted there is no democracy. It's like stating that it is democratic to vote for Naziism. Once the Nazi took hold, there was no democracy or choice in Germany.

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  7. #87
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glücksritter View Post
    I do neither support Islam nor the Western Democracy as such.

    So you live in a plain somewhere between where the rest of us has yet to attain? This is our world. The civilization in the west gained its status because it fought for it and continually fights to maintain it against those who recognize the old prescritions of communism, dictatorship, and religious oppression as the choice organizational tool of societies.

    There is no utopia. But only in the West can one find people so intent on complaining about how bad they have it without fear of punishment for speaking out.

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  8. #88
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Your theory is interesting but in fact I think that you the real factor is not religion but economy.

    I don't think it has to be either or. Obviously all things can be traced back to economy and to who's making the money. But in the Islamic world we can trace things back to significant events that occur before economy was a factor.....

    1) We know that in 1579 Istanbul got an observatory and that in 1580 Arab clerics had it demolished. A few centuries before this, Islam led the world in astronomy and math.

    2) In 1728, Muteferrika remarked that "it is vital for the Muslims, formerly in advance of the West in sciences, not to let themselves be eclipsed" when he started the Islamic world's first printing press. By 1745, Arab clerics had it shut down and prohibited the printing press.

    3) Towards the mid of the 1700s Muhammed ibn Saud struck a marriage of convenience with a religious "reformer" named Abd al-Wahhab. You know where this went.

    4) In the 1840s (?) Arab clerics bullied the Ottoman Empire to drop three seminal issues of religious reform: ending the Muslim role in the African slave trade, freeing the women from the yoke of the veil, and letting unbelievers live in the land of the Prophet. Mecca's chief clericleveled a fatwa against Istanbul....."The ban on slaves is contrary to the Holy Sharia, permitting women to walk unveiled and placing divorce in the ands of women are contrary to the pure Holy Law, and that such proposals make the Turks infidels."

    Once the Ottoman Empire took custody of Islam's care after the Crusades, the only undisputed glory that the Arabs could claim was the glory of Islam's founding moment. By preserving this declaration at every attempt by outsiders to reform the religion to the world's evolution they petrified it. As they slipped further behind Europeans in military and material honor, momentum gathered for fundamentalism.

    In the 1920s a Turkish General would abolish the Caliphate all together and by the 1950s Sayyid Qutb would go on to declare the West, especially America, as evil and the enemy of Islam due largely to cultural differences.


    The oil and fight against Soviet communist influence came after these historical prescriptions that guided Islam into today's state. This was cultural suicide and in the twentieth century thay found themselves far behind the industrialized and fast progressivley moving world. Oil and America's dictator support during the Cold War are distractors and only serve as a crutch. As long as these distractors serve those who wish not to accept responsibility for their own cultural prescriptions they have the convenience of accepting that their is nothing they can do. Individuals do it all the time. If they can blame some one else for their troubles, then they make for themselves a state of acceptance while holding true to blame because it is not their fault. The same is true for civilizations.

    There is no coincidence that the nation to finally abolish the Caliphate (Turkey) is the most westernized and socially progressive Islamic state given its earlier attempts to reform the religion and the culture. And there is no coincidence that the tribe that fought those reforms to preserve the old prescrioptions lags so far behind and produces the vast majority of religious extremism today.

    In this case, perhaps the lack of economy is a factor because it was never allowed to gain momentum before the West discovered oil in the desert. Without observatories and printing press', creativity is all but stifled. Exportation was no-existent while the exportation of Western states were crossing oceans. The cultural prescription to look religiously inward while the rest of the world was encouraging inginuity and creativity is why the West gained and the Middle East didn't. And I've said this enough times..... where's the competition between a civilization that denies contribution from half its population (women) and a civilization that encourages contribution from all citizens?

    I just refuse to give them their convenient excuse that the West's oil greed is why they exist in a barbaric state of thought.

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  9. #89
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glücksritter View Post
    So how about you giving a comment to the civilized Western way I gave examples for?
    You gave examples of imperfection. Not definition.

    Centuries of innovation and creativity with the goal of humanitarianism and liberal thought is summed up with the exceptional picture of a prisoner on a crate? I suppose the exception of Abu-Ghraib sums it up too? Surely you could have shown pictures of Jewish slaughter inside Germany to declare your disgust for the civilized West but that would have been too close to home wouldn't it? Your criticisms are obviously about America...not so much the West. But here are some examples of the "civilized" west.....

    1) All citizens are equal to vote and to contribute to their societies.

    2) Immigration to the West far exceeeds the almost non existent demand for immigration into the Middle East. (think its because of the weather?)

    3) Civilizations are judged by their militaries and by their educational insititutions. Where are the Court Martials in the Middle East when their servicemen et out of line in accordance to a "civilized" society's demands? All "worldy" universities are in the West. Where's the Yale, Harvard, or Cambridge in the Middle East that people from all over the world flock to? Given the choice, would your children like to attend the University of Tehran?

    4) Very little international aid comes out of the Middle East. In fact, the Middle East is the recipient of some of that Western aid.

    5) And when it comes to Islamic nations and Islamic peoples condemning the acts of their religious tyrants and extremists....where are the Muslim armies when it comes to the West doing battle against them?

    6) The West has managed to humanize the religions. A Muslim, a Christian (Catholic and Protestant), and a Jew may share a small town where their holy structures are preserved and maintained. Where in the Arab world can one find a Star of David or a Cross on the same street as a Crescent Moon?

    These, along with so much more, are true examples of definition when it comes to civilization. What you offered were exceptions to the rule. Even your example of torture came with an outrage from the West and a demand for better behavior because we recognize that this is not the norm and beneath us. Do we see such citizen or media demands from the Middle East when their people and cultures are chopping off heads or stoning women? When their people condemn their religious nuts do they not also condemn the West for battling them?

    There is a vast confusion and contradiction in the Middle East about what they believe in because they are trapped between religious prescription and the educated world. Generally speaking, they are trying to emerge while maintaining their monopoly on God. And in history, one could argue that sharing God rather than locking him up in a single religious structure makes all the difference when trying to"civilize" a civilization.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-20-09 at 02:10 PM.

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  10. #90
    R.I.P. Léo
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I just refuse to give them their convenient excuse that the West's oil greed is why they exist in a barbaric state of thought.
    Then I'm affraid you didn't understand my argument. You gave us a nice history lesson but you did not refute any of the factors I gave.

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