View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol their elected leaders must be vetted by the theocrats. None of their so called "reformers" will even so much as criticize the closed circle of power of the theocracy let alone call for its end. True Iranian reformers are banned from elections.
    That does not change the fact that even that limited measure of democracy is a great deal more representative than what one finds in many Sunni states. So I don't think that one can accurately say that Shia Islam is incompatible with democracy.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-11-09 at 01:20 AM.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Islam, as it is currently, is incompatible with democracy. Mainly because religion is the law in most of the Muslim countries.
    Once they'd become secular, like turkey for example, they shouldn't have any problem with becoming a democracy.
    Sharia is certainly incompatible with democracy. Islam and democracy are not incompatible per-say (see Indonesia, Yemen, Albania, Lebanon, Turkey, etc.).
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-11-09 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That does not change the fact that even that limited measure of democracy is a great deal more representative than what one finds in many Sunni states. So I don't think that one can accurately say that Shia Islam is incompatible with democracy.

    Sunni states; such as, Yemen and Turkey? Even Kuwait which is not even an electoral democracy is much freer than Iran. Lebanon would be an example of a Shia majority democracy, however, it is in fact the Shia within that country (see Hezbollah) which support the Islamist agenda, whereas, it is the Sunni and Christians who have insured the continuance of liberal democracy within Lebanon.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-11-09 at 01:49 AM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Sunni states; such as, Yemen and Turkey?
    I'm sure you know the states to which I'm referring. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, the various gulf emirates, Central Asia, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Even Kuwait which is not even an electoral democracy is much freer than Iran.
    Kuwait might be FREER than Iran, but Iran is more DEMOCRATIC than Kuwait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Lebanon would be an example of a Shia majority democracy, however, it is in fact the Shia within that country (see Hezbollah) which support the Islamist agenda, whereas, it is the Sunni and Christians who have insured the continuance of liberal democracy within Lebanon.
    The poll doesn't say anything about liberal democracy. All democracy means is rule by the people. When you start attaching other meanings to it, like freedom or liberalism or separation of church and state, you are really asking if Islam is compatible with AMERICAN democracy. To that question, I would answer no...but then, neither is any other country besides the United States.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-11-09 at 02:04 AM.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I'm sure you know the states to which I'm referring. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, the various gulf emirates, Central Asia, etc.
    The largest Muslim democracy is Indonesia they are predominantly Sunni with only 100,000 Shia nationwide. In fact Shia was first started to initiate hereditary leadership as opposed to the Sunni who believed that Imans and what not don't have to be descended from Mohammed. Furthermore; Egypt is far more democratic than Iran.

    Kuwait might be FREER than Iran, but Iran is more DEMOCRATIC than Kuwait.
    Not really, Kuwait is a Parliamentary monarchy their parliamentary elections are far more free and fair than that of Irans.

    The poll doesn't say anything about liberal democracy. All democracy means is rule by the people. When you start attaching other meanings to it, like freedom or liberalism or separation of church and state, you are really asking if Islam is compatible with AMERICAN democracy. To that question, I would answer no...but then, neither is any other country besides the United States.
    Iran is not a democracy they are not ruled by the people they are ruled by the theocrats if they were ruled by the people then the national candidates would not be pre-screened by the Mullahs. They are a theocracy. And Islam is compatible with separation of church and state and liberalism (see Turkey, Lebanon, Indonesia, and Albania).

  6. #56
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    According to Samuel Huntington, Islam is incompatible with religion because
    - there is no separation with church & state in these countries
    - democracy is not present in their culture
    - the Koran itself is contrary to democracy
    ...

    Do you think he's right or wrong? Why?
    Islam is religion, goverment, life standards together. It couldn't be separated.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Sharia is certainly incompatible with democracy. Islam and democracy are not incompatible per-say (see Indonesia, Yemen, Albania, Lebanon, Turkey, etc.).
    Sharia is Islamic law.

    If the majority of the population of a sovereign state wants Sharia law, is that not democracy?

  8. #58
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This I disagree with. I'm both a Catholic and reformed Christian being an Perennialist Anglican but if anything I certainly lean towards the former approach. I don't think a lot of what went on at the reformation was a good thing nor was Catholicism and traditionalism before then becoming moribund.

    One cannot, in my opinion, have a living meaningful religious community without enshrining the importance of religious tradition like those you mention of Islam's above.
    My point was that a monopoly on religion strangles a civilization and thusly makes the religion itself unhealthy. When religions compete for souls, they tend to bring out the best in themselves. In the Western world, a Catholic church can share a street with a Protestant church. On the same street there may be a Synagogue or a Mosque. And the reason this is possible is because Christianity tore itself apart in the 16th century with the agenda to re-establish a faith in God rather than an institution.

    In the Islamic world, there is no such thing as healthy religious competition. And when there is no competition, the tendancy to improve becomes unnecesary. This is true in every aspect of competition whether we speak of business, economy, militaries, ....and souls.

    And because the Sunni Arab elders of Islam strangled the religion at the time the Ottoman Turks were looking to reform it, the Islamic religion and its civilization remains imprisoned to a monopoly of oppression and designed allegiance. And its this allegiance that makes democracy improbable in the desert.

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  9. #59
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    What a load of bull****.
    I said nothing about Christianity being any less violent in history than Islam. Nor did I state that Christians were peace loving individuals of purity. Therefore, your reply was worthless to what I stated. Are you not able to look at the Western civilization and compare that to the Middle Eastern civilization? You think the differences are an accident? How many Mosques share streets with Cathedrals or Synagogues in the Middle East? Can you state the same thing about the West?

    Christianity forced itself to reform and to rebel against the established Christian world. Islam has yet to do this. To put it in simpler terms......

    1) Christianity - Rome controls Christianity and the word of God is in Latin.

    2) Islam - Mecca controls the Islamic world and the word of God is Arabic.

    Which anchient prescription exists still today? And which civilization shares a world with religion and democracy while the other clings to a religious monopoly with democracy being all but absent?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Christianity only "accepted" a separation of church and state out of pure survival instinct. The masses over time got more and more educated and slowly realized the bs the Church has spoon fed them for generations. Plus the political link between Church and rulers across the world became less and less when the rulers realized that they needed to give more freedoms and democratic access to its subjects or they would loose power totally.
    Um...isn't this exactly what I stated for which you declared "bull ****?" I clearly wrote about the mobile printing press which had everything to do with helping to influence and fuel the protestant movement against the church. You argue "education," which is what the mobile printing press offerred. Between extremists like Martin Luthor, Thomas, and Phillip II, Christianity tore itself apart and divided societies. This aggravation within the civilization provided the pressure needed for rulers to budge on the old prescription.

    However, the Sunni Arabs insisted on prohibiting the mobile printing press in the Middle East. It insisted on the closure of the only observatory, which was located in Istanbul. And it they forced the Turkish Caliphate to recant on his wanted reforms, which involved civil rights and gender equality, slavery, and religious interpretation.

    Before you immediately jump to declare everything I write as "bull ****," perhaps you should actually read them first. It would save you from having to make the same argument I already made.

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  10. #60
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhail View Post
    Well all current democracies have muslim living with in them most of whom both worship Islam and partake in democracy.

    Islamism isnt because it itself a different form of government.
    Muslims that live in the West live under non-Islamic governments. They are individuals that live in a more reformed progressive world due to the reformations of religion in the 16th century. We have managed to humanize the religions through healthy competition.

    Now.....where in the world does a single religion hold a monopoly? And what would the West look like if Catholicism still maintained complete power over Christianity as it did in the 15th century?

    One religion moved on and one did not. Where Islam had a tougher road than Christianity did to travel out of the dark is in its roots.

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