View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

Voters
48. You may not vote on this poll
  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 5 of 14 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 135

Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #41
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Protestants emerged to challenge the Catholic church.
    Do you mind explaining this?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #42
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Do you mind explaining this?
    You know this stuff.

    Europe ~ 16th century. Protestors, which would become "Protestants," would see men like Martin Luthor. Catholics would see men like Phillip II. Henry the VIII would go on to insist on less power to the church, which challenged the condition of Rome. The Holy Bible would start seeing translation from Latin to English so that the average man could read it for himself. The mobile printing press would begin to filter these translations on a wider scale. Violence, mayhem, religious turmoil, etc.

    Christianity had a reformation and the status quo was forever shaken. Consider that up to this point in history that the center of the Christian world was Rome and the word of God was in Latin. This all changed and led to a healthier religion (comopetition tends to bring out the best of a product whether we speak of automobiles or souls).

    Now, consider today that the center of the Islamic world remains Mecca and the word of God is Arabic. The Qu'ran states that God is everywhere so why do Muslims have to face Mecca? The Qu'ran states that God speaks in all languages, so why do Muslims have to pray in Arabic? I submit that just like the Catholic Church of old, The Sunni Arabic tribe prescribes an allegiance to their tribe and establishment rather than God. In other words, Islam hasn't had its reformation. (Yet?) And until it does, the prescriptions of old will continue to exist.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  3. #43
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    This all changed and led to a healthier religion (comopetition tends to bring out the best of a product whether we speak of automobiles or souls).
    This I disagree with. I'm both a Catholic and reformed Christian being an Perennialist Anglican but if anything I certainly lean towards the former approach. I don't think a lot of what went on at the reformation was a good thing nor was Catholicism and traditionalism before then becoming moribund.

    One cannot, in my opinion, have a living meaningful religious community without enshrining the importance of religious tradition like those you mention of Islam's above.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #44
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,089

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    What is your point? This is a good thing, it splits loyalty and adds plurality and distinctions to the state. As De Tocqueville that most prescient commentator on democracy realised such things are absolutely necessary for freedom in democracy which tends to break down distinctions and amass power in one centralised spot.
    My point is that religion is incompatible with democracy. All major religions demand a certain level of devotion by followers to said religion and that devotion on many levels contradicts basic democratic freedoms and thought.
    PeteEU

  5. #45
    Sage
    PeteEU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denmark
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 07:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    29,089

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I very much disagree. Christianity was set up as a religion seperated from state governance and only began to find its way when Protestants emerged to challenge the Catholic church. Islam's base was set up to show no seperation. Looking at this from the religious point of view.....

    Jesus said, "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, and render unto God that which is God's." This clearly demonstrates a difference between a heavenly plain and an earthly plain. Muhammed was a General and a soveriegn. Therefore he was his own Ceaser. Both inventors had entirely different prescriptions for their religions. Would Christianity look different today had Jesus been a General or a soveriegn? Would Islam be different had Muhammed been a simple carpenter and a hippie? There is a sense of superiority and demand for power that cultures assume when their religious icons ruled empires....and it ripples down through history. For Catholics....it was the "victimhood" of Jesus on the cross. For Muslims, it has been about the glory of Muhammed. After all, in the end, Muhammed died successful and empowered. Jesus was executed.

    Of course, Christianity would lose its path rather quickly. And Islam did the same upon Muhammed's death with the Sunni insisting on a vote for succession (resembling a sort of democracy) and the Shia insisting on a devine blood line (resembling a monarchy).

    Over the course of history, the Sunni would lose stewardship of Islam to the converted Turks. And it was at this time, the Sunni elders put the breaks on Islamic progression insisting that the Ottoman Caliphate kill the mobile printing press, which was in Turkey, the only observatory, which was located in Istanbul, and insisting on an abandonment of social progress. Whether because of a sense of lost pride having lost Islam to outsiders or just an attempt to turn back the clock to Islam's "Golden Age" when the Sunni laid the law, all of these type things encouraged the idea that Islam was government.

    I don't think Islam is as poised to assume a seperation from state as Christinaity was. This is not to say it is impossible, but people need to recognize that democracy from one culture to the next will not be the same and that many will stamp their own brand of democracy upon the earth. But I am a firm believer that the roots of the religions are more important to understanding today's crisis' than people think.
    What a load of bull****. Christianity has been just as demanding as Islam is today of its followers. The Catholic church and other faiths have killed, tortured and banished people they saw as being "unfaithful" or not good enough for their faith. For centuries it was part of Christian dogma that women were not allowed to many many things and any woman that even attempted to speak up or go outside the boundaries were seen as witches and what not and often killed. For centuries, only the wealthy were allowed an education, an education that was only conducted by Christian monks and denied to the masses. For centuries Christianity denied science (and still does) to such an extreme that it actually killed people for their views.

    Even today Christianity attempts to destroy democracy at every level. Whether it is gay rights, abortion, divorce or any other area the church see it "morally" obligated to meddle its ugly hands in.

    Christianity only "accepted" a separation of church and state out of pure survival instinct. The masses over time got more and more educated and slowly realized the bs the Church has spoon fed them for generations. Plus the political link between Church and rulers across the world became less and less when the rulers realized that they needed to give more freedoms and democratic access to its subjects or they would loose power totally.
    PeteEU

  6. #46
    Sage
    kaya'08's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    British Turk
    Last Seen
    05-12-14 @ 01:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    6,363

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This I disagree with. I'm both a Catholic and reformed Christian being an Perennialist Anglican but if anything I certainly lean towards the former approach. I don't think a lot of what went on at the reformation was a good thing nor was Catholicism and traditionalism before then becoming moribund.

    One cannot, in my opinion, have a living meaningful religious community without enshrining the importance of religious tradition like those you mention of Islam's above.
    British society doesnt become meaningless because religious values are not shared, infact it makes us stronger because we can live beside each other and ignore our differentiating beliefs, which is more than what i can say for the Netherlands, Germany, or the ME, etc. Why, how, could one possibly encourage or enforce religious traditions in British society when religious views and beliefs are so diverse and different in England? It would cause divisions. You cannot enforce the majority and ignore the large minority. It wouldnt work in Britain to encourage "religious traditions". It would, however, work if we encouraged traditions based on common beliefs and understanding. The Britain you share your view of, a Britain that can share religious traditions no longer exists, because those religious traditions are no longer just home to Britain, but a variety of other religions. This isnt the cure to reversing social decline.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

  7. #47
    blond bombshell

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    uk
    Last Seen
    10-19-12 @ 11:03 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    4,729

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Well all current democracies have muslim living with in them most of whom both worship Islam and partake in democracy.

    Islamism isnt because it itself a different form of government.
    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking.

  8. #48
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    My point is that religion is incompatible with democracy. All major religions demand a certain level of devotion by followers to said religion and that devotion on many levels contradicts basic democratic freedoms and thought.
    I discuss it contradicts them to the degree it makes democracy impossible but it does sometimes provide a lot of tension. Personally I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Democracy is probably the best form of gov't, when done properly, but we shouldn't pretend it doesn't have a hell of a lot of problems and I think religion, and the extra source of authority you talk of might not necessarily be bad things for it as De Tocqueville that greatest of commentors on democracy surmised. Democracy requires distinctions and plurality because it helps to destroy these.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #49
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    British society doesnt become meaningless because religious values are not shared, infact it makes us stronger because we can live beside each other and ignore our differentiating beliefs, which is more than what i can say for the Netherlands, Germany, or the ME, etc.
    I disagree. Our society is weaker now than it was in my opinion. Community and such certainly are. That society cannot survive without shared beliefs is certainly true, it is then but a heap of atoms.

    Why, how, could one possibly encourage or enforce religious traditions in British society when religious views and beliefs are so diverse and different in England?
    I'd start by reviving religious teaching in schools and the place of the church in society. I'd build communities as well, the two go together.


    It would cause divisions. You cannot enforce the majority and ignore the large minority. It wouldnt work in Britain to encourage "religious traditions". It would, however, work if we encouraged traditions based on common beliefs and understanding.
    The problem with this is one cannot engineer the necessary shared belief system. It is the infant of centuries, the child of generations. Not something to be built by the whim of individual reason or even a whole generations. It is far better to fall back on what we have got, what is intertwined in our constitution and what has served us so well.

    The Britain you share your view of, a Britain that can share religious traditions no longer exists, because those religious traditions are no longer just home to Britain, but a variety of other religions. This isnt the cure to reversing social decline.
    I must disagree. One can do it in a way as to not be too offensive to other belief systems. They'd have their complete religious liberty, I'm not talking about reviving the test act or arresting Catholics, really I'm only suggesting measures quite mild, nothing directly against any other belief system. Well mild to all but those who have unfortunately imbibed too much of a particular strain of American or French thought.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-11-09 at 01:03 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #50
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Past the edge of the universe, through the singularity, and out the other side.
    Last Seen
    09-01-10 @ 05:23 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,324

    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Iran is certainly not Sweden in this regard, but neither is it North Korea. It's most a dictatorship, but it certainly isn't totalitarian. Iran's elected leaders are not the most powerful people in Iran, but they do hold some real power over domestic affairs. That's a great deal more representative than many Sunni states.
    lol their elected leaders must be vetted by the theocrats. None of their so called "reformers" will even so much as criticize the closed circle of power of the theocracy let alone call for its end. True Iranian reformers are banned from elections.

    You also have the examples of Lebanon and Iraq, which are even closer to representative democracy than is Iran.
    Yep the Lebanese recently rejected the Islamist agenda. Iraq is in a state of defensive democracy whose system is almost exactly that of Lebanon's.

Page 5 of 14 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •