View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #31
    Dorset Patriot
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Didn't De Tocqueville believe that a large federal government would ultimately lead to the loss of liberty? From my memory of his work I believe that he, like Jefferson, believed that small, community democracies were more suitable for the preservation of Democracy. As the states have been minimized for the power of the Federal, Tocqueville's vision has been fulfilled, no?
    He believed that the division of America into states with real power and autonomy was a bulwark for liberty yes. I don't know if he was a Jeffersonian. He wasn't for simple democracy to my knowledge, he was big and probably right, on support for divisions, plurality and decentralism though.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #32
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    He believed that the division of America into states with real power and autonomy was a bulwark for liberty yes. I don't know if he was a Jeffersonian. He wasn't for simple democracy to my knowledge, he was big and probably right, on support for divisions, plurality and decentralism though.
    So, back to topic, I think that the fundamentalist takeover of the Islam world rests in the weak economic conditions of these countries. If the monarchies and poverty of these nations can be overcome, then democracy can flourish. Afghanistan, prior to the Soviet invasion was quite a friendly nation, with great liberties. After the void was left after the super-power struggle, fundamnetalists took over as the U.S. abandoned the people. This is a familiar scenario all over the Middle East. Yet, if the same approach is taken with the ME as has been undertaken with China, for example, and the flux of capitalism and free trade is introduced with opportunity for all, then a real Middle Class will arise and the situation will better itself.

    Many argue that a Middle Class now exists and that these people are funding terror, yet the majority of these Middle Class peoples have either accrued their money prior to the rise of the chaos that now holds the region, or have become disallussioned with the Monarchies of the ME that allow their people to suffer in poverty while they deal with the U.S. and West, who promote democracy, yet deal with tyrants for access to oil.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    I think its difficult to blankently say Islams values can not be coincided with a democratic values. If you look at the history of the middle east they have shown the ability to progress and be a learned and prosperous area. However as long as the polerization that we see today continues, Imams preach ignorance and hate, and education takes a back seat to spiritual fanaticism we will not see the englightment of these people.

  4. #34
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Livebythesword View Post
    I think its difficult to blankently say Islams values can not be coincided with a democratic values. If you look at the history of the middle east they have shown the ability to progress and be a learned and prosperous area. However as long as the polerization that we see today continues, Imams preach ignorance and hate, and education takes a back seat to spiritual fanaticism we will not see the englightment of these people.
    I agree, but as long as their is only the choice to live in poverty or go to the Imams and terror groups for money, fundamentalism will dominate.

  5. #35
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Islam can be compatible with Mob Rule, oh, I meant democracy.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

  6. #36
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon are all Shiite, and they all have quasi-democracies. Granted, none of those countries are as representative of their people as, say, the United States of America. But they're certainly more representative than many Sunni states. I don't see how you can say that Shia Islam is incompatible with democracy, when there are examples to the contrary that exist right now.
    small correction

    Iran has a large majority of Shi'ite population
    Iraq is predominantly Shi'ite
    As for Lebanon only about one third of the population is Shi'ite
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
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  7. #37
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    All religion is incompatible with democracy. Every religion requires devotion to an unelected person or persons. In Islam it is to the mullah's who claim to be gods representative on Earth. Same thing in Christianity.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Secularism is the way to go.

    In order to build stable, responsible government in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States needs to completely eradicate the extremists, by any means possible.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    All religion is incompatible with democracy. Every religion requires devotion to an unelected person or persons. In Islam it is to the mullah's who claim to be gods representative on Earth. Same thing in Christianity.
    What is your point? This is a good thing, it splits loyalty and adds plurality and distinctions to the state. As De Tocqueville that most prescient commentator on democracy realised such things are absolutely necessary for freedom in democracy which tends to break down distinctions and amass power in one centralised spot.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #40
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Islam is as compatiable as any other religion.
    I very much disagree. Christianity was set up as a religion seperated from state governance and only began to find its way when Protestants emerged to challenge the Catholic church. Islam's base was set up to show no seperation. Looking at this from the religious point of view.....

    Jesus said, "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, and render unto God that which is God's." This clearly demonstrates a difference between a heavenly plain and an earthly plain. Muhammed was a General and a soveriegn. Therefore he was his own Ceaser. Both inventors had entirely different prescriptions for their religions. Would Christianity look different today had Jesus been a General or a soveriegn? Would Islam be different had Muhammed been a simple carpenter and a hippie? There is a sense of superiority and demand for power that cultures assume when their religious icons ruled empires....and it ripples down through history. For Catholics....it was the "victimhood" of Jesus on the cross. For Muslims, it has been about the glory of Muhammed. After all, in the end, Muhammed died successful and empowered. Jesus was executed.

    Of course, Christianity would lose its path rather quickly. And Islam did the same upon Muhammed's death with the Sunni insisting on a vote for succession (resembling a sort of democracy) and the Shia insisting on a devine blood line (resembling a monarchy).

    Over the course of history, the Sunni would lose stewardship of Islam to the converted Turks. And it was at this time, the Sunni elders put the breaks on Islamic progression insisting that the Ottoman Caliphate kill the mobile printing press, which was in Turkey, the only observatory, which was located in Istanbul, and insisting on an abandonment of social progress. Whether because of a sense of lost pride having lost Islam to outsiders or just an attempt to turn back the clock to Islam's "Golden Age" when the Sunni laid the law, all of these type things encouraged the idea that Islam was government.

    I don't think Islam is as poised to assume a seperation from state as Christinaity was. This is not to say it is impossible, but people need to recognize that democracy from one culture to the next will not be the same and that many will stamp their own brand of democracy upon the earth. But I am a firm believer that the roots of the religions are more important to understanding today's crisis' than people think.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-10-09 at 02:13 AM.

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