View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #121
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Yemen and Kuwait???
    Why are you fighting this? 42 percent of Yemen is Shia and Sharia is the basic source of law. It's not the Arab boom you think it is. But it is the Arab prescription of the Sauds that hinders this nation.

    "The government and its security forces, often considered to suffer from rampant corruption, have been responsible for torture, inhumane treatment and even extrajudicial executions. There are arbitrary arrests of citizens, especially in the south, as well as arbitrary searches of homes. Prolonged pretrial detention is a serious problem, and judicial corruption, inefficiency, and executive interference undermine due process. Freedom of speech, the press and religion are all restricted.
    Yemen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "
    And Kuwait proves another point I have made. Kuwait has a 50+ percent Arab population. However, it is the historical cultural mix that lifts it above the rest. Of all the examples of Muslim governments between Cairo and Islamabad, Kuwait is the exception to the rule and the example highly ignored by the rest. They have a very mixed culture in the aspect of tribe and religion. Without the Arab prescription of Sharia or Islamic dominance and monopolism, Kuwait's HDI (Human Development Index) is bested only by Israel ini the Middle East. Of course, having the American hand in the mix doesn't exactly hurt matters.

    The general rule is that the furthest Muslim nations get from the heart of Islam, the healthier they tend to become (Kuwait, the extreme lone exception.) This is why Muslims can exist and prosper in a western democracy without fail like the rest of us. This is why a monopoly on religion has always proven to be a disaster for civilizations down through history. The very same rule existed for Christianity in the 16th century. The nations that spurned the Catholic church, which was/is seated at Rome were Britian, parts of Germany, and others. In the future, the absence of a single dominant religion and the presence of multi cultures and religion saw Britian beomce the most humane by far even in its colonies and Germany become the smart guys of western Europe. Doesn't Italy lag behind the rest today? And what of Spain? They were the Pope's greatest ally during this period of religious reform and only in the 1970s did they finally emerge from the dictator's category of organization.

    There are so many trends in history that lead us to logical conclusions and help us predict probabe futures in these civilizations. Arguing for the exceptions doesn't help us understand why they are the exception.
    Last edited by MSgt; 07-06-09 at 08:31 PM.

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  2. #122
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Why are you fighting this?

    Yemen 5 5 Partly Free


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom..._World_(report)

    That's pretty good for that region.

    42 percent of Yemen is Shia and Sharia is the basic source of law. It's not the Arab boom you think it is. But it is the Arab prescription of the Sauds that hinders this nation.
    No it was the Marxists that destroyed the Yemenese economy. The Sauds have higher standards of living.


    And Kuwait proves another point I have made. Kuwait has a 50+ percent Arab population. However, it is the historical cultural mix that lifts it above the rest. Of all the examples of Muslim governments between Cairo and Islamabad, Kuwait is the exception to the rule and the example highly ignored by the rest. They have a very mixed culture in the aspect of tribe and religion. Without the Arab prescription of Sharia or Islamic dominance and monopolism, Kuwait's HDI (Human Development Index) is bested only by Israel ini the Middle East. Of course, having the American hand in the mix doesn't exactly hurt matters.

    The general rule is that the furthest Muslim nations get from the heart of Islam, the healthier they tend to become (Kuwait, the extreme lone exception.) This is why Muslims can exist and prosper in a western democracy without fail like the rest of us. This is why a monopoly on religion has always proven to be a disaster for civilizations down through history. The very same rule existed for Christianity in the 16th century. The nations that spurned the Catholic church, which was/is seated at Rome were Britian, parts of Germany, and others. In the future, the absence of a single dominant religion and the presence of multi cultures and religion saw Britian beomce the most humane by far even in its colonies and Germany become the smart guys of western Europe. Doesn't Italy lag behind the rest today? And what of Spain? They were the Pope's greatest ally during this period of religious reform and only in the 1970s did they finally emerge from the dictator's category of organization.

    There are so many trends in history that lead us to logical conclusions and help us predict probabe futures in these civilizations. Arguing for the exceptions doesn't help us understand why they are the exception.

  3. #123
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yemen is crushingly poor, and the rule of law is weak or absent. As a result, extremism is alive and well there. Sounds a lot like those other nations to me. What do you believe sets Yemen apart from the others I mentioned?
    And yet it's listed partly free by freedomhouse.

    The same can be said of a few eastern bloc nations as well which are, also, listed partly free or even free. I don't see the connection unless theocrats come to control the government IE Iran, Saudi Arabia (blood pact house of Saud and Wahhab), former Taliban Afghanistan, and current Gaza.

    I thought that the discussion was about democracy which is the token term for liberalism.

  4. #124
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    First, a question: What part of the Qur'an makes them think democracy is impossible?

    It's harder to have democracy with Islam partly because they are more focused upon orthopraxy than orthodoxy, as we have with conservative Christians. So instead of just needing to have the right mindset, and "give to Caesar that which is Caesars" as Jesus might say, the Muslims are expected to act out their religion in a more public way. There are predominantly Muslim countries with democracy, like Turkey. And more conservative nations could use democracy, provided they used the Qu'ran as a sort of Constitution, which the largely homogenous populace wouldn't violate except out of ignorance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I do not understand how it can be an Monotheistic culture and accept alternatives.

    It would be considered a hazard to the health of the individual to not accept Allah. They would treat that person like we treat the mentally ill.
    We don't necessarily execute the mentally ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Iran is antithetical to democracy, their system is theocratic at its core and the elections are a farce because it is the theocrats who hold the true power within that country not the elected officials.
    Well one could say the same about corporate powers in America, not that democracy is a great alternative to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Afghanistan and Iraq are examples of nations that were both democracies until their governments suffered coups sponsored by our friends in the West.

    Democracy is something that the West does not want the Middle East to have or maintain so long as the people there are anti-West and have input into which foreign nations get their support. Most of this centers around oil or strategic support.

    If you look at historical examples of countries that wanted to nationalize their oil and restrict trade with the West, such as Iran, you'll find that the West (particularly the U.S.) immediately sponsored coups in those nations. Dictators are much more easily controlled.

    Islam is just the most recent political scapegoat for the above factors. Western nations don't want their people thinking about the truth, after all.
    Yeah I know what you mean on Iran: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax]1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Islam can be compatible with Mob Rule, oh, I meant democracy.
    Yeah I know. Don't they get together and stone immoral people to death? Is that democracy? Or barbarism? I guess it's both.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-08-09 at 09:12 PM.

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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiveUninhibited View Post

    Well one could say the same about corporate powers in America, not that democracy is a great alternative to it.
    The U.S. is a bastion of liberal pluralism, what system would you prefer? And which corporate powers would you be referring to exactly? Do you know what an anti-trust law is?

    I mean to even suggest that (in a country where the Baha'i are treated as 4th class citizens Christians and Jews as 3rd class citizens, and women as 2nd class citizens) is even in the same timeline as the U.S. is laughable to the point of offensive.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 07-08-09 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #126
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    And don't even get me started on the closed circle of theocratic power.

  7. #127
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The U.S. is a bastion of liberal pluralism, what system would you prefer? And which corporate powers would you be referring to exactly? Do you know what an anti-trust law is?
    LOL, anti-trust law.

    America a bastion of liberal pluralism? No we're to the right of most other industrialized/post-industrial nations. Compared to Islamic countries we might be what you describe, I guess.

    I'd suggest you read this book: Who Rules America? Power, Politics, & Social Change

    Domhoff would suggest proportional representation, among other reforms. Single-district plurality voting is problematic in that individuals are easier to buy than entire parties. It's not that Americans have no voice in the matter, they are just so damned easily manipulated that it makes little difference most of the time.

    Edit: So if you wanted America to be more democratic, proportional representation would help, I just think most people are so uninformed, and society is becoming so complex, than most people cannot possibly be informed enough to make policy decisions. And the people we have in power are lawyers who are clueless about how society works, only how the law works, which itself is capricious because it is controlled by lawyers and people who sit on multiple corporate boards.

    Edit 2: See lawyers are trained on how to persuade people of lies, which unfortunately means they know more about how to tug on heartstrings than how to evaluate evidence even if they are well-intentioned.

    I would suggest a specific form of technocracy. Evidence-based governing with multidisciplinary competency tests for being intelligent and informed enough to help shape policy. And governing people being insulated from benefitting from their own decisions. Another needed component would be the ability to reliably test empathy. Polygraph tests would help, but they're not perfect. So while I think my system would still be better than the status quo, technology would need to progress a bit further for it to work optimally.
    Last edited by LiveUninhibited; 07-08-09 at 09:23 PM.

  8. #128
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    You can be religious and not have a theocratic dictatorship. And if the Iranian people really want a system of governance in which all national candidates must be pre-approved by the Guardian Council, where half of the Guardian Council is selected directly by the Supreme Leader and the other half are selected by the Majilis (who again are pre-screened by the Guardian Council) out of a list of jurists who are selected by the head of the Judiciary who is selected directly by the Supreme Leader, and where the Assembly of Experts who choose the Supreme Leader are chosen amongst a pre-screened list vetted by the Guardian Council, and an expediency council which solves disputes between the pre-screened Majilis and the directly and indirectly selected Guardian Council is selected directly by the Supreme Leader, then fine let them vote for it in a free and fair election monitored by international observers.

    If you're a reformist who doesn't support ending this closed system of power in which the Supreme Leader rules... well Supreme then I don't see how you can be labeled a reformist.

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  9. #129
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    You have a point about Iran though. Even if the election hadn't been rigged, it still would only have been an illusion of democracy.

  10. #130
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Islam is incompatible with civilization, period, just like every other religion. There is a reason why we have seperation of church and state in this country. Americans better wake up to the fact that there is a large sector of Islamists who believe that the rejection of Islam warrants our complete annhilation. Nevermind, we're too busy worrying about whether the terrorists at Gitmo can get through to their attorney.

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