View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Indian Muslims are very moderate and peaceful. What are you talking about?

    They are also not Sunni Arabs. People are trying to look at this as if it is a Muslim thing. It is not. It is a tribal thing.

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  2. #112
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Easily. The further away from the heartland of Islam (or Sunni Arabs) the more progressive the society gets. Notice that? The most democratic and socially progressive Muslim country is Turkey and they are not Sunni Arabs. The most oppressive Muslim governments are Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and formerly Iraq....all Sunni Arab nations. I stated this a few posts ago.

    India is not parented by a Muslim government. But if they were, the Sunni prescritpion would not be a hinderance.

    China and Russia have nothing to do with nothing. However, Russia is as "democratic" as Iran. And communism has been referred to as the "godless" religion before.
    According to this map they're Sunni.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tribution2.jpg

    But maybe your point is that they're not Arabs.

    So, Islam would be compatible with democracy, unless the people are Arab.

    But once more that does not work: Afghani are not Arab but they have the most extreme Islamic government. It is the same for various African countries, like Chad, who are not Arab at all but are among the most extreme Islamist countries in the world.

    And a counter example was Iraq under Saddam Hussein, which was ruled by Sunni Arabs and which was not a democracy but it was not a theocracy neither.

  3. #113
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Easily. The further away from the heartland of Islam (or Sunni Arabs) the more progressive the society gets. Notice that? The most democratic and socially progressive Muslim country is Turkey and they are not Sunni Arabs. The most oppressive Muslim governments are Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and formerly Iraq....all Sunni Arab nations. I stated this a few posts ago.

    India is not parented by a Muslim government. But if they were, the Sunni prescritpion would not be a hinderance.

    China and Russia have nothing to do with nothing. However, Russia is as "democratic" as Iran. And communism has been referred to as the "godless" religion before.
    Far away like Yemen and Kuwait??? Point of fact Turkey is majority Sunni as is Indonesia.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 06-21-09 at 05:24 AM.

  4. #114
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    And a counter example was Iraq under Saddam Hussein, which was ruled by Sunni Arabs and which was not a democracy but it was not a theocracy neither.
    Saddam is the example that probably goes closest to the heart of the matter.

    Religion is not of itself a stumbling block to democracy. Theocracies are difficult things to justify by any religious text. Even Iran's Islamic Republic required some significant contortions by the Ayatollah Khomeni to rationalize.

    However, there are cultural dynamics within certain peoples that lend themselves to non-democratic government. The most potent force against democracy in the Middle East is not Islam but tribal society. The same is also true for many parts of Africa as well as Afghanistan.

    In tribal societies, familial and clan loyalties matter more than national loyalties, and the success of the clan matters more than the cohesion and prosperity of the nation. Such a culture does not foster democratic principles; competition among various clans results in an effective nation state only when one clan succeeds in dominating the others.

    Nations that do not have tribal cultures are going to have greater success with democracy than nations with tribal cultures. The presence of Islam is merely coincidental.

  5. #115
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    They are also not Sunni Arabs. People are trying to look at this as if it is a Muslim thing. It is not. It is a tribal thing.
    I completely agree. Nearly all Islamist terrorist ideologies begin in the Arab world and are exported to the rest of the Muslim world...and more specifically, they begin in the most destitute parts of the Arab world, like Yemen and Palestine. (Much has been made of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as being the godfather to all of these movements...but I don't think it is, since the Muslim Brotherhood has generally played by the rules and rarely explicitly endorses terrorism. The extremists generally operate in places where it's far worse to live than Egypt.)

    The long-term solution to Islamic extremism, IMO, is to help some of the worst-off countries in the Muslim world build functioning societies. Along with Yemen and Palestine, this would include some non-Arab countries like Somalia, Eritrea, Afghanistan, and rural Pakistan. Once we eliminating the hotbeds of extremism, we will eliminate the contagion...then all we have to do is wait for the extremists already entrenched in other parts of the Muslim world to die or be marginalized.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-25-09 at 12:18 AM.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I completely agree. Nearly all Islamist terrorist ideologies begin in the Arab world and are exported to the rest of the Muslim world...and more specifically, they begin in the most destitute parts of the Arab world, like Yemen and Palestine. (Much has been made of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as being the godfather to all of these movements...but I don't think it is, since the Muslim Brotherhood has generally played by the rules and rarely explicitly endorses terrorism. The extremists generally operate in places where it's far worse to live than Egypt.)

    The long-term solution to Islamic extremism, IMO, is to help some of the worst-off countries in the Muslim world build functioning societies. Along with Yemen and Palestine, this would include some non-Arab countries like Somalia, Eritrea, Afghanistan, and rural Pakistan. Once we eliminating the hotbeds of extremism, we will eliminate the contagion...then all we have to do is wait for the extremists already entrenched in other parts of the Muslim world to die or be marginalized.
    The idea that Yemen belongs in the same category as "Palestine" Somalia and Afghanistan is simply ridiculous.

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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The idea that Yemen belongs in the same category as "Palestine" Somalia and Afghanistan is simply ridiculous.
    Yemen is crushingly poor, and the rule of law is weak or absent. As a result, extremism is alive and well there. Sounds a lot like those other nations to me. What do you believe sets Yemen apart from the others I mentioned?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 06-25-09 at 05:35 PM.
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  8. #118
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Far away like Yemen and Kuwait??? Point of fact Turkey is majority Sunni as is Indonesia.
    I stated...Sunni "Arabs."

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  9. #119
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    According to this map they're Sunni.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...tribution2.jpg

    But maybe your point is that they're not Arabs.

    So, Islam would be compatible with democracy, unless the people are Arab.

    But once more that does not work: Afghani are not Arab but they have the most extreme Islamic government. It is the same for various African countries, like Chad, who are not Arab at all but are among the most extreme Islamist countries in the world.

    And a counter example was Iraq under Saddam Hussein, which was ruled by Sunni Arabs and which was not a democracy but it was not a theocracy neither.
    I did state Sunni "Arabs." The clear and obvious rule is that the closer the society is to the Sunni Arab tribe the more oppressed and twisted it is. This does not mean that non-Sunni Arab societies are free and clear of oppression. The Tali-Ban leadership very much adhered to the Sunni Arab prescription, which is why Al-Queda found great comfort with them.

    And once again...Saddam Hussein was a Sunni Arab.

    Damn, Bub. It appears that you are hell bent on denying any patterns as if to pretend that all is by accident or by outside influence and prescription. It is not. There is a clear historical pattern here and denying it only serves to offer Sunni Arabs their validated denials. I have given you names and dates in history where the Sunni Arab tribe denied the Ottoman Turks their attempts to reform the (or modernize) the religion in a world where other religions threatened to fly right by them. The fact is that the Sunni Arab is the reason Islam is in the state that it is in today.

    Look at it another way. In the world we live in today, medical science has come a long way from the the state it was in centuries ago when "bleeding" was the remedy. Would you seek to argue that there is no pattern to be found for the religious nutcases in the deep south of America that preferred prayer over medical science? Bring in poor education, insufficient outside focus, or the national evangilist on TV all you want, but the fact is that people are ultimately responsible for the decisions they make and no amount of denial will change this.

    Sunni Arabs are to blame for much of Islam's state, especially in the Middle East where they export Wahhabism and extreme fanaticism......all simply to ensure popular allegiance to a specific tribe. If God is everywhere...why face Mecca to pray? If God understands all languages why pray in Arabic? See the pattern? The Quran is clear on God's ultimate knowledge and presence, yet, in spite of this, the center of Islam's faith appears to be Sunni Arab centric.

    And what would true democracy do to the Sunni Tirbe's position as Islam's care taker? The Shia, the Kurds, the Turks, the many other tribes of Islam who have found themselves constantly under pressure from the Sunni Arab Tribe? What did the Turks do to Islam when they abolished the Sunni prescriotion of a Caliphate? And how far from Sharia has Iraq gotten from their democracy saw the Shia become the majority? The Sunni Arsb call the Shia heretics. And Iran's "democracy" is made up of the Shia. It seems painfully obvious to me.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-28-09 at 05:16 PM.

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  10. #120
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I did state Sunni "Arabs." The clear and obvious rule is that the closer the society is to the Sunni Arab tribe the more oppressed and twisted it is.
    Yemen and Kuwait???

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