View Poll Results: Is Islam incompatible with religion?

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  • No, there are other factors

    22 45.83%
  • Yes, because there is no separation between church & state over there

    10 20.83%
  • Yes, because the Koran is their only law, and it is against democracy

    12 25.00%
  • Yes, because it's "foreign" to their culture, democracy is a Western concept

    4 8.33%
  • other

    6 12.50%
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Thread: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

  1. #91
    Meh...
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Then I'm affraid you didn't understand my argument. You gave us a nice history lesson but you did not refute any of the factors I gave.
    Well that's because I wasn't looking to refute your factors. I attempted to produce the more defining factors that paved the way for future factors that had nothing to do with the direction they chose to take. It's like using the fact that the ground is hard when defining why a man's head cracked open without regard to the fact that nobody shoved him over the side of the building. I'll state it another way.....Is Islamic extremism to blame for GITMO? Life is about choices. As true as this is for individuals it is true for civilizations. Responsibility is too easily cast away in the Middle East. Down through history and to this day, A Muslim's worse enemy has always been another Muslim. The West came after they chose their path and clung tightly to it.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-20-09 at 02:18 PM.

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  2. #92
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Well that's because I wasn't looking to refute your factors. I attempted to produce the more defining factors that paved the way for future factors that had nothing to do with the direction they chose to take. It's like using the fact that the ground is hard when defining why a man's head cracked open without regard to the fact that nobody shoved him over the side of the building. I'll state it another way.....Is Islamic extremism to blame for GITMO? Life is about choices. As true as this is for individuals it is true for civilizations. Responsibility is too easily cast away in the Middle East. Down through history and to this day, A Muslim's worse enemy has always been another Muslim. The West came after they chose their path and clung tightly to it.
    Well, it was not only a question of choice, since oil is an extremely important factor, and that they did not choose to live where there was oil.

    And Islam does not seem to be an important factor, since half of the muslims live in democracies.

  3. #93
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    And Islam does not seem to be an important factor, since half of the muslims live in democracies.
    You mean muslim immigrants to the EU/US? Because last time i looked, most muslim countries where democratic on the tin, but the contents inside resembled more of a dictatorship in disguise.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  4. #94
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Well, it was not only a question of choice, since oil is an extremely important factor, and that they did not choose to live where there was oil.
    But they were born there and they spent centuries and centuries too afraid to stand up against those who demanded God's power on earth. The West did the very same thing until the Protestant movement defied the establishment and paved a new path for Christianity. It was at this moment in history that the West excellerated in progression. This was not a coincidence. But Christianity had something that Islam does not - Jesus was not Ceaser. Muhammed was. And this makes it all the more difficult for them to seperate one from the other since the founding inventor was the soveriegn, "pope", and government wrapped in one.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    And Islam does not seem to be an important factor, since half of the muslims live in democracies.
    These are Muslims that left the Islamic world because Iran and Egypt's "democracy" are hardly about what the people want for themselves and their children. They left for a better world where opportunity and education were normal prescription and trumped religious barbarism and backwardness. They left for a world where religion lived peacefully amongst itself. They left for a world where economy wasn't denied due to religious prescription declaring what was and what was not against God.

    Itjihad - the free interpretation of the Qu'ran. Banned by Arabs soon afer the Crusades. Mobile Printing press banned. Observatories denied. All these things and more all but demanded a brittle concrete and unquestioned observance of the Arab tribe as Islam's root. So much was done to completely destroy creativity and education beyond that which Arabs didn't prescribe that it is entirely pathetic for the Middle East to choose to start history when the West discovered oil in the desert and went into business with Muslims who had the same care for their fellow Muslim that they had since the Crusads ended.

    And make no mistake....the end of the Crusade saw the Ottoman's victorious. For the Arabs, they had lost just as the West had. And no matter what the Turks tried to do for the religion, this was the root of Islam's spiral into darkness.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-20-09 at 02:50 PM.

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  5. #95
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    You mean muslim immigrants to the EU/US? Because last time i looked, most muslim countries where democratic on the tin, but the contents inside resembled more of a dictatorship in disguise.
    You should look again then:

    Indonesia => 200 millions muslims => "free" (= democracy)
    India => 150 millions muslims => "democracy"
    Bangladesh => 150 millions muslims => "partly free"
    Nigeria => 75 millions muslims => "partly free"
    Turkey => 75 millions muslims => "electoral democracy"
    Morroco => 33 millions muslims => "partly free"

    freedomhouse.org: Map of Freedom in the World

  6. #96
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    But they were born there and they spent centuries and centuries too afraid to stand up against those who demanded God's power on earth. The West did the very same thing until the Protestant movement defied the establishment and paved a new path for Christianity. It was at this moment in history that the West excellerated in progression. This was not a coincidence. But Christianity had something that Islam does not - Jesus was not Ceaser. Muhammed was. And this makes it all the more difficult for them to seperate one from the other since the founding inventor was the soveriegn, "pope", and government wrapped in one.



    These are Muslims that left the Islamic world because Iran and Egypt's "democracy" are hardly about what the people want for themselves and their children. They left for a better world where opportunity and education were normal prescription and trumped religious barbarism and backwardness. They left for a world where religion lived peacefully amongst itself. They left for a world where economy wasn't denied due to religious prescription declaring what was and what was not against God.

    Itjihad - the free interpretation of the Qu'ran. Banned by Arabs soon afer the Crusades. Mobile Printing press banned. Observatories denied. All these things and more all but demanded a brittle concrete and unquestioned observance of the Arab tribe as Islam's root. So much was done to completely destroy creativity and education beyond that which Arabs didn't prescribe that it is entirely pathetic for the Middle East to choose to start history when the West discovered oil in the desert and went into business with Muslims who had the same care for their fellow Muslim that they had since the Crusads ended.

    And make no mistake....the end of the Crusade saw the Ottoman's victorious. For the Arabs, they had lost just as the West had. And no matter what the Turks tried to do for the religion, this was the root of Islam's spiral into darkness.
    Indonesia is the biggest muslim country in the world, and it is a democracy.
    India is the 2nd biggest muslim country in the world, and it is also a democracy.


    China is the biggest country in the world, it is not muslim and it is a dictatorship.
    Russia is one of the biggest non muslim countries in the world, and it is also a dictatorship.

    How do you explain that?

  7. #97
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Indonesia is the biggest muslim country in the world, and it is a democracy.
    India is the 2nd biggest muslim country in the world, and it is also a democracy.


    China is the biggest country in the world, it is not muslim and it is a dictatorship.
    Russia is one of the biggest non muslim countries in the world, and it is also a dictatorship.

    How do you explain that?
    This is kind of silly, you could call Russia a democracy as well as you do it with Indonesia.
    India is not a muslim country, it has a muslim minority, nothing more, nothing less. Russia e.g. too by the way.
    Rather dead than red!

  8. #98
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    You should look again then:

    Indonesia => 200 millions muslims => "free" (= democracy)
    India => 150 millions muslims => "democracy"
    Bangladesh => 150 millions muslims => "partly free"
    Nigeria => 75 millions muslims => "partly free"
    Turkey => 75 millions muslims => "electoral democracy"
    Morroco => 33 millions muslims => "partly free"
    Partly free is not a Democracy.
    And 405 muslims is not half of all the muslims on this planet. This is all irelevant with the discussion at hand: is islam compatible with democracy? I dont believe in religion is compatible with democracy, not just islam. Only difference is, the west practicies secularism successfully and most Islamic nations have not; so it may seem its paticularly incompatible compared to the rest when this is not the case. The case is, its JUST as incompatible with democracy as the rest.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 06-20-09 at 03:35 PM.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  9. #99
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glücksritter View Post
    This is kind of silly, you could call Russia a democracy as well as you do it with Indonesia.
    India is not a muslim country, it has a muslim minority, nothing more, nothing less. Russia e.g. too by the way.
    the Freedom House disagrees with you.

    As for India, well there are 150 millions muslims, they accept democracy. That's the point.

  10. #100
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    Re: Is Islam incompatible with democracy?

    I have wrote an extra long response to one comment of GySgt which was meant for me but it took too long and got lost due to difficulties of re-logging in.

    I am frustrated and will rewrite an answer later.
    Rather dead than red!

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