View Poll Results: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

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  • Hiroshima was worse

    14 50.00%
  • Torture is worse

    4 14.29%
  • Hiroshima was neseccary

    22 78.57%
  • Torture was neseccary

    8 28.57%
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Thread: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

  1. #21
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It didn't take two bombs to force the surrender, as the Japanese were willing to surrender before the bombs were dropped
    If you're right -- why didn't they surrender -before- the bombs were dropped?

  2. #22
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It didn't take two bombs to force the surrender, as the Japanese were willing to surrender before the bombs were dropped, as I've already outlined in the other thread and backed up with substantial evidence.
    If there was substantial evidence, I missed it.....
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  3. #23
    salmon bisque
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I don't see the connection between torture and exterminating an entire population...

    am I missing something?
    My thought process is that both were/are atrocities.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
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  4. #24
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    If you're right -- why didn't they surrender -before- the bombs were dropped?
    Because the Allies were only willing to accept unconditional surrender.

  5. #25
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    It didn't take two bombs to force the surrender, as the Japanese were willing to surrender before the bombs were dropped, as I've already outlined in the other thread and backed up with substantial evidence.
    I would say that Japanese proper (the Monarchy) was willing to surrender, but the Monarch was not the decision-maker at the time. The military Generals who told soldiers and soldiers family that their duty was to protect their island.

    Families and smaller villages were told that the American forces were demons coming to eat their children.

    I do not think the entirety of Japan would have surrendered to the allied forces. It would have taken a joint effort to go village to village and finish off the job.


    Finally, I believe that the bomb was a rush job. There were Russian plans to invade the Japanese territory and this point of the war became the beginning of the Cold war. We could not allow the Russians to take control over the Japanese mainlands; there was no time to allow diplomacy.
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    My thought process is that both were/are atrocities.
    I think the scale makes it difficult to compare.

    The Hiroshima bombing is really specific, whereas, torture is very murky and dynamic.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

  7. #27
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Because the Allies were only willing to accept unconditional surrender.
    And so...?

  8. #28
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Hiroshima was worse, and more necessary.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  9. #29
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    I would say that Japanese proper (the Monarchy) was willing to surrender, but the Monarch was not the decision-maker at the time. The military Generals who told soldiers and soldiers family that their duty was to protect their island.
    There is little point in attempting precisely to impute Japan's unconditional surrender to any one of the numerous causes which jointly and cumulatively were responsible for Japan's disaster. The time lapse between military impotence and political acceptance of the inevitable might have been shorter had the political structure of Japan permitted a more rapid and decisive determination of national policies. Nevertheless, it seems clear that, even without the atomic bombing attacks, air supremacy over Japan could have exerted sufficient pressure to bring about unconditional surrender and obviate the need for invasion.

    Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

    US Strategic Bombing Survey

    Chicago Tribune, August 19,1945

    JAPS ASKED PEACE IN JAN. ENVOYS ON WAY -- TOKYO

    Roosevelt Ignored M'Arthur Report On Nip Proposals

    By Walter Trohan

    Release of all censorship restrictions in the United States makes it possible to report that the first Japanese peace bid was relayed to the White House seven months ago.

    Two days before the late President Roosevelt left the last week in January for the Yalta conference with Prime Minister Churchill and Marshal Stalin he received a Japanese offer identical with the terms subsequently concluded by his successor, Harry S. Truman.

    MacArthur Relayed Message to F.D.

    The Jap offer, based on five separate overtures, was relayed to the White House by Gen. MacArthur in a 40-page communication. The American commander, who had just returned triumphantly to Bataan, urged negotiations on the basis of the Jap overtures.

    The offer, as relayed by MacArthur, contemplated abject surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. The suggestion was advanced from the Japanese quarters making the offer that the Emperor become a puppet in the hands of American forces.

    Two of the five Jap overtures were made through American channels and three through British channels. All came from responsible Japanese, acting for Emperor Hirohito.

    General's Communication Dismissed

    President Roosevelt dismissed the general's communication, which was studded with solemn references to the deity, after a casual reading with the remark, "MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician."

    The MacArthur report was not even taken to Yalta. However, it was carefully preserved in the files of the high command and subsequently became the basis of the Truman-Attlee Potsdam declaration calling for surrender of Japan.

    This Jap peace bid was known to the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald shortly after the MacArthur comunication reached here. It was not published under the paper’s established policy of complete co-operation with the voluntary censorship code.

    FULL STORY

    DISCLAIMER:
    And in case you don't believe this article is valid (as the IHR is a noted revisionist organization), here it is in the archives of the Chicago Tribune.
    And so...?
    And so the bombs were unnecessary, as it is quite clear that Japan was willing to surrender.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-05-09 at 12:16 PM.

  10. #30
    salmon bisque
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I think the scale makes it difficult to compare.

    The Hiroshima bombing is really specific, whereas, torture is very murky and dynamic.

    True but they're both things the U.S. resorted to in the course of war.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

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