View Poll Results: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

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  • Hiroshima was worse

    14 50.00%
  • Torture is worse

    4 14.29%
  • Hiroshima was neseccary

    22 78.57%
  • Torture was neseccary

    8 28.57%
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Thread: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

  1. #91
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Nah.

    People will always act in what they find to be in their best interest.
    What one person finds in his best interest will, eventually, conflict with what someone finds to be in HIS best intrest. If no arrangement can be made, conflict will ensue, and the issue will be resolved with force, or the credible threat thereof.
    Humans acting in their own best interest vs. using war to accomplish such an end are mutually exclusive values. Just because humans act selfishly does not mean they will always use the same means to achieve that end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Societies are just groups of people.
    And wars are on the decline, despite what popular media would have you believe. There is not nearly as much war in the world today as there was even 200 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The paradigm I describe, above, is not one of them.
    Well, the country you live in is a warring nation, so of course you have been brought up to believe this. Part of your country's current paradigm is that war is a reality and humans will always be at war. The establishment in your nation requires you to belief this in order to manufacture your consent for campaigns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    In all reality, societies are 'evolving' farther and farther away from basic human instincts; this evolution, driven by technology, is accelerating.
    This almost certainly will lead to some sort of catastrophic collapse.
    This is an interesting idea, something I agree with. Our urbanized world, where survival is reliant upon the industrial complex, is not meant to last in its current form, IMO. I think a lot about the current system is designed to make greed more efficient for the ruling class, and is not truly helping to eliminate material and social inequities.

    I do believe though that innovations in energy technology will make it harder for the ruling class to provide excuses (such as resource allocation) for why such a system of control is needed. I think this is the primary reason why innovations in energy technology don't happen too rapidly.

  2. #92
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    If and when it happens, it will take 50 years to replace a substantial number of the existing coal plants.
    Like I said, I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime, but I do believe that a working prototype will exist in 50 years. How it is applied and how the system will be supplemented is anyone's guess. I'm sure it will be a bureaucratic nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    as for lack of investment, no, not at all. Billions have gone into fusion research, there are some horrendous problems to overcome, and money alone won't fix that. You would get better results spending those billions on public schools.
    Promising innovations? I spent some time working around nuclear research in Idaho. Promising innovations is what they say when they are seeking more funding to support research in areas where they have yet to succeed, and see no light at the end of the tunnel.
    From the development side, the biggest obstacle has been innovating some form of magnetic containment for the plasma flow. Small scale reactors are feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    and, to beat my favorite dead horse, our ubersmart leaders have yet to ask us to conserve energy.....the ONE thing we can do now, can do now for free, and definitely works, no research needed.
    This is why I have thanked your post.

  3. #93
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Humans acting in their own best interest vs. using war to accomplish such an end are mutually exclusive values. Just because humans act selfishly does not mean they will always use the same means to achieve that end.



    And wars are on the decline, despite what popular media would have you believe. There is not nearly as much war in the world today as there was even 200 years ago.



    Well, the country you live in is a warring nation, so of course you have been
    brought up to believe this. Part of your country's current paradigm is that war is a reality and humans will always be at war. The establishment in your nation requires you to belief this in order to manufacture your consent for campaigns.



    This is an interesting idea, something I agree with. Our urbanized world, where survival is reliant upon the industrial complex, is not meant to last in its current form, IMO. I think a lot about the current system is designed to make greed more efficient for the ruling class, and is not truly helping to eliminate material and social inequities.

    I do believe though that innovations in energy technology will make it harder for the ruling class to provide excuses (such as resource allocation) for why such a system of control is needed. I think this is the primary reason why innovations in energy technology don't happen too rapidly.


    So what you're saying is that war isn't a reality of human nature and that there won't always be armed conflict?

    Hmmmm?

    Got any proof?

    Why are there fewer wars today than before?

    Mainly because the United States has been keeping peace in Europe.

  4. #94
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    So what you're saying is that war isn't a reality of human nature and that there won't always be armed conflict?
    That's not what I said at all. I said that humans acting in self interest doesn't always have to lead to war. Individual people don't have the capacity to create war, it is always our leaders and governments who declare those wars on our collective behalf, and then seek our consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Why are there fewer wars today than before?

    Mainly because the United States has been keeping peace in Europe.
    There are a variety of reasons. Complex interdependence is a big one. Attacking most major nations is like cutting off your foot in modern times. Another big reason is that the 21st century has seen the biggest wars in all of human history and people learned their lesson.

    The rise of international relations as a diplomatic discipline began with the League of Nations... the idea of having international forums for discussion of issues is a new thing.

    The list goes on...

  5. #95
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Can we all just agree that war is sick, heinous, and cruel, and just move on already?

    I don't care if the bomb was "necessary" or not. It was horrendous.
    War is heinous and cruel and also very very human.


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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    War is heinous and cruel and also very very human.
    It is only human because we admit to it. If we found another way it would be gone and would be seen as heinous as it is and it would be disgusting.
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  7. #97
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    It is only human because we admit to it. If we found another way it would be gone and would be seen as heinous as it is and it would be disgusting.
    Mind suggesting what that "other way" might be?

  8. #98
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    It is only human because we admit to it. If we found another way it would be gone and would be seen as heinous as it is and it would be disgusting.
    It will never be gone.

    It will never be gone because there will always be people willing to kill to take what they want. And there will always be people willing to follow them. They have no interest in your utopian fantasies and will laugh derisively at you for them.

    That is the truth of human nature. And human nature has never and will never change.
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  9. #99
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    It is only human because we admit to it. If we found another way it would be gone and would be seen as heinous as it is and it would be disgusting.
    No it is human because we are animals and fighting is a natural part of life. We are closely related to Chimps, so if you want to see real human nature just watch their group behaviors. If you think Humans are somehow different just because we are smarter that is just not supported by the over 7000 recorded history of man. Peace is just a time period between war.


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  10. #100
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    Re: Hiroshima Bombing vs. Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    Neither was necessary.
    Thank you for that, now prove Hiroshima wasn't necessary.
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