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Will people ever truly unite?

Frodly said:
That is wrong!! As a virulent anto-theist myself, I have to disagree with you. Almost every war in the history of mankind has been about self-interest(very often economic). It is just cloaked in the fervor of nationalist sentiment or religion!! The 2 play the same purpose. They give ambitious countries and leaders the justification to invade peoples, who they want to use for economic, strategic, or some other gains. Religion is right up there with nationalism as being the most used justification of Murder and death in human history, but usually it is just a cloak to hide more base goals!!
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Brilliant answer MR Frodly!

You are pretty smart for a liberal. ;)
 
Blackdog said:
Thats a pretty uninformed comment. Got any proof to back that up?

Let's use just WWI and WWII as an example. The 2 largest wars in the history of man kind, and had nothing to do with religion.

So getting rid of religion would not change things much. We as people would just replace it with something else.
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Agreed, getting rid of religion would change little. The world would still be divided and wars would still occur. Humans are just naturally like that
 
The KGB is a POWER which systematically and ruthlessly MURDERED about SIXTY MILLION of my countrymen, and still engages in the killing of innocent defenseless people all over the world.
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Love Letter to America

.
 
Frodly said:
That is wrong!! As a virulent anto-theist myself, I have to disagree with you. Almost every war in the history of mankind has been about self-interest(very often economic). It is just cloaked in the fervor of nationalist sentiment or religion!! The 2 play the same purpose. They give ambitious countries and leaders the justification to invade peoples, who they want to use for economic, strategic, or some other gains. Religion is right up there with nationalism as being the most used justification of Murder and death in human history, but usually it is just a cloak to hide more base goals!!
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And those who actually conducted the murder? The footsoldiers, why do you think they did it? For economics? Or for the USED JUSTIFICATION reasons mentioned above? Hm?

The ***** politicians or emporers had one reason, BUT, who did they kill?

The person killing was doing it in the name of what exactly? Economics? Or Religion?
 
FlappyTheKinkajou said:
With Inferno's version of Utopia, there would be no freedom and no tolerance.
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You have zero idea what you are talking about when it comes to my vision. I could not even pretend to have an idea as to what you are thinking. Where did you get this gift of ESP?
 
Laila said:
Nah, unless Aliens comes and attacks us. We have nothing to bring together the human race.
We tend to overlook our differences if there is a common enemy.
And besides, the closest we will get is acceptance of others differences and utopia will never occur on this earth whilst humans are still around.
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If it is possible to think it it is possible to achieve this. We so limit ourselves. I would hope that someday we could do far better than the war mongering that we find so acceptable. If we can do war and hate can't we do peace and love to the benefit of all?

Is humanity that limited in it's ability to find harmony? I guess i like to think that we can evolve beyond our limitations.
 
Blackdog said:
Thats a pretty uninformed comment. Got any proof to back that up?

Let's use just WWI and WWII as an example. The 2 largest wars in the history of man kind, and had nothing to do with religion.

So getting rid of religion would not change things much. We as people would just replace it with something else.
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Let's look at WWII. When did Jewish become anything other than a religion?
 
Inferno said:
If it is possible to think it it is possible to achieve this. We so limit ourselves. I would hope that someday we could do far better than the war mongering that we find so acceptable. If we can do war and hate can't we do peace and love to the benefit of all?

Is humanity that limited in it's ability to find harmony? I guess i like to think that we can evolve beyond our limitations.
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Not really.
I can think we can do many things, the reality is very different.
Wars will always happen, divisions will always be there and deaths will never be a thing of the past. That is reality and that is how the world will always be.

Peace and love is fictional things, it may work on individual levels but such a thing will never happen with nations. Countries will always look out for their own interest and the protection of their citizens.
 
zimmer said:
Not quite.
Ask how many tens of million Stalin killed.
How many Chairman Mao killed with his Great Leap Forward.

That's between 40 to 60 million for The Godless Ones.
Call it Mechanized Death.

It's not even close.

ROTFLMAO.
We have Marx in our midst..
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I really hope you are nit trying to say that Stalin and Mao were socialists. That would really be funny. I must be misunderstanding you.

No I am not Marx. But I am working in that direction.
 
Inferno said:
Is humanity that limited in it's ability to find harmony? I guess i like to think that we can evolve beyond our limitations.
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While your ideas may appeal to many and I see nothing wrong with them for those that share your dream. I believe mankind as a whole would never let this happen. We are a generaly selfish breed.
 
Laila said:
Not really.
I can think we can do many things, the reality is very different.
Wars will always happen, divisions will always be there and deaths will never be a thing of the past. That is reality and that is how the world will always be.

Peace and love is fictional things, it may work on individual levels but such a thing will never happen with nations. Countries will always look out for their own interest and the protection of their citizens.
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That is true what you are stating. It can never change from that if this is what we believe is our plight. If I believe that I will always be a smoker I more than likely will be. If I believe that I will never be able to read French that is true because I will not even try. If I accept that I will always be in an abusive relationship where my partner always hits me I will continue to allow that to happen. The reality of everything around us is limited only by our ability to accept the worst and not hope for better.

I don't have any doubt that war is in everyone's future because everyone believes that is so. I know that Utopia is impossible because the world is lined up against it and they say it can't be done. I have no illusions that these things are not true. They are true and will be humanities plight because they want it to stay as it is.
 
Baralis said:
While your ideas may appeal to many and I see nothing wrong with them for those that share your dream. I believe mankind as a whole would never let this happen. We are a generaly selfish breed.
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I do agree. Humanity refuses to believe in becoming better and more. It is okay.
 
Of course the human race will never reach 100% acceptance.

By nature we tend to be greedy, and if setting back one "part" of our race to further our OWN needs is what we see fit.. that's what will happen.

It's unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
 
Shewter said:
Of course the human race will never reach 100% acceptance.

By nature we tend to be greedy, and if setting back one "part" of our race to further our OWN needs is what we see fit.. that's what will happen.

It's unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
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So true. WE are limited in our ability to change because of the wants that most have.
 
Inferno said:
So true. WE are limited in our ability to change because of the wants that most have.
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I don't sweat it too much.

Alot of people like to pretend that we are so much better than animals. When in fact, almost everything we do mirrors that of the animal kingdom.

In some ways, we are even worse at it than them. For some reason, we screw it all up by thinking that our OWN morals are more important or mean more than someone else's.
 
Inferno said:
So true. WE are limited in our ability to change because of the wants that most have.
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I guess I am somewhere in the middle. I have often thought about a self sufficient community where everyone works for the betterment of the comminity. I would not mind being a part of such a community but I would also like to have ownership of my own property and be the ultimate authority over said property.
 
Shewter said:
I don't sweat it too much.

Alot of people like to pretend that we are so much better than animals. When in fact, almost everything we do mirrors that of the animal kingdom.

In some ways, we are even worse at it than them. For some reason, we screw it all up by thinking that our OWN morals are more important or mean more than someone else's.
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I like to think that we can be but alas I am crushed by the status quo all the time. It does not stop me from trying though.
 
Inferno said:
That is true what you are stating. It can never change from that if this is what we believe is our plight. If I believe that I will always be a smoker I more than likely will be. If I believe that I will never be able to read French that is true because I will not even try. If I accept that I will always be in an abusive relationship where my partner always hits me I will continue to allow that to happen. The reality of everything around us is limited only by our ability to accept the worst and not hope for better.

I don't have any doubt that war is in everyone's future because everyone believes that is so. I know that Utopia is impossible because the world is lined up against it and they say it can't be done. I have no illusions that these things are not true. They are true and will be humanities plight because they want it to stay as it is.
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It's a lovely dream but it just will not happen. Humans are naturally capable of great evils and are inherently selfish. Nothing will change.
Perhaps we have stopped evolving :p
 
Baralis said:
I guess I am somewhere in the middle. I have often thought about a self sufficient community where everyone works for the betterment of the comminity. I would not mind being a part of such a community but I would also like to have ownership of my own property and be the ultimate authority over said property.
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And eventually the residents of the community to the left will take what your community has worked so hard to achieve.
 
Inferno said:
I like to think that we can be but alas I am crushed by the status quo all the time. It does not stop me from trying though.
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And I believe this is what freedom is all about. We may have seemingly unachievable dreams but that will never stop us from trying. The only sure way at failure is to give up.
 
Baralis said:
I guess I am somewhere in the middle. I have often thought about a self sufficient community where everyone works for the betterment of the comminity. I would not mind being a part of such a community but I would also like to have ownership of my own property and be the ultimate authority over said property.
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I live as part of a commune. It is limited and it functions very well. I have no idea how much larger it can become. We will try and expand it. It would take forever to do it this way but uit does work.
The only requirement that we have is that there is no religion. It is the one area where we have made a rule. The people that join know this up front. It is not hidden.

I say it is limited as now it has 500 adults and has just expanded to a second community and with have a farm and a local school. That will be offered to the towns people free of charge.
 
Laila said:
It's a lovely dream but it just will not happen. Humans are naturally capable of great evils and are inherently selfish. Nothing will change.
Perhaps we have stopped evolving :p
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I am willing to roll the dice and take the risks for the people that I care about. I just refuse to give up the dream.
 
Baralis said:
And I believe this is what freedom is all about. We may have seemingly unachievable dreams but that will never stop us from trying. The only sure way at failure is to give up.
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I think to many people say this can't happen and throw their hands up and say we won't even try. The answer is openness an acceptance is the answer. The more we can accept the better we are.
 
Inferno said:
You have zero idea what you are talking about when it comes to my vision. I could not even pretend to have an idea as to what you are thinking. Where did you get this gift of ESP?
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First of all, you said yourself that there would be "very little tolerance," and because you are advertising a Utopian ideal, that tips me off, along with my own thought processes, that there will be no tolerance. Second of all, there will be no freedom due to a combination of the fact that freedom cannot exist without tolerance, unitizing ideals imply no freedom, and creating a commune situation through involuntary methods starts without freedom by definition and allows further demonstrations of freedom to be destroyed.
 
Inferno said:
Let's look at WWII. When did Jewish become anything other than a religion?
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Yes, a religious group was the OBJECT of aggression, not the PERPETRATORS of aggression. 6 million Jews died, and 5 million others died.
 
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