View Poll Results: Do you believe in these ideals and how highly do you hold them?

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  • Yes i believe in them and they are supreme to me

    15 68.18%
  • Yes I beleive in them but they are in the background

    3 13.64%
  • No I do not believe in them.

    3 13.64%
  • I am progressive, these "truths" where then but we have evolved and have new truths.

    1 4.55%
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Thread: Do you Believe?

  1. #1
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Do you Believe?

    Ok so I am just wondering how many Americans hold these beliefs in the highest regard?

    Declaration Of independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  2. #2
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    No, I do not believe in them.

    1- I do not believe that all men are created equal. This is not only not self-evident, but all available evidence is quite clearly to the contrary. No two men are equal in their strengths, in their desires, or in their potential-- and this dissimilarity exists from the moment of their creation to the moment of their destruction.

    Thus to claim that all men are equal in moral value is to say that moral value has no relationship with any other measure of value; in other words, it is to declare that moral value is utterly meaningless.

    2- I do not believe that men are endowed with rights, by their Creator or otherwise. Men are endowed with power, and it is by their power that they may secure rights; the more power a man wields, the more rights he may secure for himself. A man's rights exist in proportion to his power, relative to other mens' desire to exercise their power against him.

    3- I believe that government exists as an expression of power, and thus it is not instituted for any purpose save that which powerful men put it to. And, again, every man's right to alter or abolish the government he is subject to is strictly a function of his power to do so.

    4- The only point that I will agree with. Men are far more inclined to tolerate familiar tyranny, so long as it is bearable, than they are to seek an unfamiliar freedom from it. People start or join in revolutions for one of two reasons: unbearable suffering or unrestrained ambition.

    I make no moral distinction between the two.

  3. #3
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    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    No, I do not believe in them.

    1- I do not believe that all men are created equal. This is not only not self-evident, but all available evidence is quite clearly to the contrary. No two men are equal in their strengths, in their desires, or in their potential-- and this dissimilarity exists from the moment of their creation to the moment of their destruction.

    Thus to claim that all men are equal in moral value is to say that moral value has no relationship with any other measure of value; in other words, it is to declare that moral value is utterly meaningless.

    2- I do not believe that men are endowed with rights, by their Creator or otherwise. Men are endowed with power, and it is by their power that they may secure rights; the more power a man wields, the more rights he may secure for himself. A man's rights exist in proportion to his power, relative to other mens' desire to exercise their power against him.

    3- I believe that government exists as an expression of power, and thus it is not instituted for any purpose save that which powerful men put it to. And, again, every man's right to alter or abolish the government he is subject to is strictly a function of his power to do so.

    4- The only point that I will agree with. Men are far more inclined to tolerate familiar tyranny, so long as it is bearable, than they are to seek an unfamiliar freedom from it. People start or join in revolutions for one of two reasons: unbearable suffering or unrestrained ambition.

    I make no moral distinction between the two.
    I think what the OP has written is the ideal and what you have written is the reality.

    I especially like that last part "Men are far more inclined to tolerate familiar tyranny, so long as it is bearable, than they are to seek an unfamiliar freedom from it."

    So true is that today that people don't even recognize that they live under it.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Yes, i was refering to the ideal not its actual practice. I do have hope though, that this may one day be us again. Hope, beign a pescience of what is and a deep seated belief of what can be.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think what the OP has written is the ideal and what you have written is the reality.
    I can't support an ideal that exists in direct contradiction to reality. There is no way to make men equal, and it would be undesirable even if it were possible. Any civilized society-- any functional society-- has men below to be commanded and men above to be obeyed. It is the struggle between men to determine which is which that drives all social and human progress.

    To reject this natural opposition of interests is to condemn men to stagnation and decadence. Applied to the whole species, it is to condemn ourself to irrelevance.

  6. #6
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I can't support an ideal that exists in direct contradiction to reality. There is no way to make men equal, and it would be undesirable even if it were possible. Any civilized society-- any functional society-- has men below to be commanded and men above to be obeyed. It is the struggle between men to determine which is which that drives all social and human progress.

    To reject this natural opposition of interests is to condemn men to stagnation and decadence. Applied to the whole species, it is to condemn ourself to irrelevance.

    These ideals must be read in there entirety, it does not mearly stop at "all men are created equal" but goes into saying how they are created equal by being "endowd by there creator with certain unailianble rights that among these are life liberty and pursuit of happieness" (property)
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  7. #7
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I can't support an ideal that exists in direct contradiction to reality. There is no way to make men equal, and it would be undesirable even if it were possible. Any civilized society-- any functional society-- has men below to be commanded and men above to be obeyed. It is the struggle between men to determine which is which that drives all social and human progress.

    To reject this natural opposition of interests is to condemn men to stagnation and decadence. Applied to the whole species, it is to condemn ourself to irrelevance.
    I actually agree with this.

    I think it means equal access to opportunity and not equal in actual creation.
    Some are born smarter, wiser, with better adaptability skills.
    I think those individuals should be nurtured to lead.

    I am not a supporter of democratic elections at all.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #8
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    Yes, i was refering to the ideal not its actual practice. I do have hope though, that this may one day be us again. Hope, beign a pescience of what is and a deep seated belief of what can be.
    I agree that everyone should be left to pursue what dreams they have as long as it does not infringe on anyone else, however, I will probably never agree that everyone should be allowed to make decisions on the direction our country should take.

    Our country's founding principles were pretty spot on and have since been perverted.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #9
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    These ideals must be read in there entirety, it does not mearly stop at "all men are created equal" but goes into saying how they are created equal by being "endowd by there creator with certain unailianble rights that among these are life liberty and pursuit of happieness" (property)
    And not only have I already spoken out against the existence of these rights, but the Declaration of Independence itself contradicts the "unalienability" of those rights by claiming the right and the duty to establish a government. A government-- any government-- carries out its duties pretty much exclusively by depriving people of their lives, liberty and/or property.

    That's how they fund their operations, that's how they enforce their laws, and that's how they defend their borders. Every possible action of government-- except the declaration of pointless resolutions-- is itself a violation of the principles which the Declaration of Independence proclaimed. The only thing that remains, then, is to determine the degree to which those rights shall be violated and for what purposes, and you cannot logically claim that you are violating a right for the purpose of protecting it.

    And that leaves you playing my game again: men struggling over the power to secure rights for themselves and deny those same rights to others.

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    Question Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And that leaves you playing my game again: men struggling over the power to secure rights for themselves and deny those same rights to others.
    If you are familiar with the Fountainhead, is this not Gail Wynand, the ultimate second hander ?

    I guess I don't see freedom in your equation.

    I don't mean some idealistic pablum, but the literal freedom to go your own way and just not care what others think, to not need power over them.

    I realize not every human makes every single thing he needs, but then I don't feel that voluntary barter necessitates much of this control either.

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