View Poll Results: Do you believe in these ideals and how highly do you hold them?

Voters
22. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes i believe in them and they are supreme to me

    15 68.18%
  • Yes I beleive in them but they are in the background

    3 13.64%
  • No I do not believe in them.

    3 13.64%
  • I am progressive, these "truths" where then but we have evolved and have new truths.

    1 4.55%
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Thread: Do you Believe?

  1. #21
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    You consider the founding fathers "liberals"?

    That's...unique.
    Well in the true meaning of liberalism yes I agree, but these current so called liberalists are nothing more then progressives, and those few true liberals left are dieing away. In the grander scale of the political spectrum yes the U.S. would be liberal, but conservatives within the U.S. political scale wish to secure those political liberalism that is the U.S. compared to the rest of the world. If the founding fathers were conservatives they would have been loyalists not patriots.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  2. #22
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    Ok so I am just wondering how many Americans hold these beliefs in the highest regard?

    Declaration Of independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    I'm an atheist, so I don't think things were granted via some god, but rather rights and liberties are innate to all humans. Humans are equal, even if not treated as such; we all have the same base rights. Beyond those thing, the rest is right on. It is the right of the people to establish for themselves a government which governs by the rights and liberties of its people. Should a government act against those rights and liberties for too long, it is the duty and responsibility of the People, as freemen and owners of the government, to do away with that government and construct for themselves a new one which rules by the rights of the individual. 100% true then and today and something which should be well understood by all. The People are the source of all power of government. Should government abuse and misuse the People's power for too long, it is necessary for the People to do away with that government. It is our right, it is our duty, for the preservation of freedom and liberty and for the ideals this Republic were founded on.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #23
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    If the founding fathers were conservatives they would have been loyalists not patriots.
    EXACTLY.

    It is my contention that the term liberal is currently being misused...by many. True liberals are ALWAYS in favor of human rights, and understand that liberty must constantly be refreshed by the blood of patriots in order to be protected.

    I'm thinking JFK, versus the watered down version of today.

  4. #24
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    You consider the founding fathers "liberals"?

    That's...unique.
    The founders were for the most part classical liberals. An ideology borrowed heavily from by modern libertarianism.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #25
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm an atheist, so I don't think things were granted via some god, but rather rights and liberties are innate to all humans. Humans are equal, even if not treated as such; we all have the same base rights. Beyond those thing, the rest is right on. It is the right of the people to establish for themselves a government which governs by the rights and liberties of its people. Should a government act against those rights and liberties for too long, it is the duty and responsibility of the People, as freemen and owners of the government, to do away with that government and construct for themselves a new one which rules by the rights of the individual. 100% true then and today and something which should be well understood by all. The People are the source of all power of government. Should government abuse and misuse the People's power for too long, it is necessary for the People to do away with that government. It is our right, it is our duty, for the preservation of freedom and liberty and for the ideals this Republic were founded on.
    I love you lol
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  6. #26
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Humans are equal, even if not treated as such; we all have the same base rights.
    Do you think that humans are all equal? Even as talents, intelligence, cognition,...etc, are so different. I agree that there is no superior race, nor noble blood superior to others, but I am glad we have a meritocracy.

  7. #27
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Do you think that humans are all equal? Even as talents, intelligence, cognition,...etc, are so different. I agree that there is no superior race, nor noble blood superior to others, but I am glad we have a meritocracy.
    While we are not all equal in our abilities we are all equal in our natural rights of life liberty and pursuit of happieness. you are in fact entitled by your creator, whomever that may be, to these ideals and thuse are my equal in that regard.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    Do you think that humans are all equal? Even as talents, intelligence, cognition,...etc, are so different. I agree that there is no superior race, nor noble blood superior to others, but I am glad we have a meritocracy.
    By equal, I mean that we all have the same base rights. In exercise of what we do, people will individually excel at different tasks, but that is superficial. I'm a physcist, I do very well with science, electronics, machining, etc. But I can't paint to save my life. That doesn't mean I am not equal with an artist, we are in fact equals as human. All humans have the same base rights, that's how we are equal. Every person in every nation has the right to keep and bear arms for instance. Not every nation recognizes that right, not every people can accept and handle the responsibilities and consequences of that right; but we all possess it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #29
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    Arrow Re: Do you Believe?

    Salutations Korimyr

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    If you are familiar with the Fountainhead, is this not Gail Wynand, the ultimate second hander ?
    If you are not famailiar with this book, can you take a peek at this and then contrast it with your first posting ? Gail Wynand, a character in Rand's novel, thought he had a lot power since he had wealth and a nationwide newspaper chain. When he tried to use the chain to say something that the people didn't like, he found out that they actually had the power over him.

    The need to control others puts you in the power of others, I guess is my muddy ill-expressed point. Can ya hose it off and take a look at it ?

  10. #30
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    Ok so I am just wondering how many Americans hold these beliefs in the highest regard?

    Declaration Of independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    I passed on the 1 in four options / vote.
    Get a grip...people are not equal, and they demand it stay thay way. Just ask a money whore, if he or she, deserves that much more money than you or me. The average special interest will be able to readily explain why they deserve.... The government will quickly explain why the new rules deprive.... Dig into a college text and you will begin to understand why a person who is less than you, drops out.

    This whole load of stuff about "equal", is a figment of your governments imagination (have they told you yet, what to THINK today). GET REAL.
    Last edited by Rodney; 05-28-09 at 01:40 PM.

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