View Poll Results: Do you believe in these ideals and how highly do you hold them?

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  • Yes i believe in them and they are supreme to me

    15 68.18%
  • Yes I beleive in them but they are in the background

    3 13.64%
  • No I do not believe in them.

    3 13.64%
  • I am progressive, these "truths" where then but we have evolved and have new truths.

    1 4.55%
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Thread: Do you Believe?

  1. #11
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    And not only have I already spoken out against the existence of these rights, but the Declaration of Independence itself contradicts the "unalienability" of those rights by claiming the right and the duty to establish a government. A government-- any government-- carries out its duties pretty much exclusively by depriving people of their lives, liberty and/or property.

    That's how they fund their operations, that's how they enforce their laws, and that's how they defend their borders. Every possible action of government-- except the declaration of pointless resolutions-- is itself a violation of the principles which the Declaration of Independence proclaimed. The only thing that remains, then, is to determine the degree to which those rights shall be violated and for what purposes, and you cannot logically claim that you are violating a right for the purpose of protecting it.

    And that leaves you playing my game again: men struggling over the power to secure rights for themselves and deny those same rights to others.
    I am sorry, but I still disagree, I truly believe that all mankind, regardless of physical or mental problems are all created equal by there creator, regardless who that may be (God, Allah, Mother nature) in that they have the natural rights of to life (the desire to want to live) Liberty (the desire to live freely) and pursuit of happieness, what every that may be. While yes the very exsistance of Government can be an infringment upon those ideals, I believe that ultimatly the people can have power over there government and ensure that these ideals are protected. When government becomes destructive to these ideals then that government must be changed.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  2. #12
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    Ok so I am just wondering how many Americans hold these beliefs in the highest regard?

    Declaration Of independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    Do you not think they are still in use today?

  3. #13
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Yes, I believe, in every single letter of that statement....and these...





    And this. If you've never had the chance to visit the green at Lexington where the first battle of the revolutionary war was fought, you should.

  4. #14
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    I guess I don't see freedom in your equation.
    There isn't any, unless you have the power to take it. That's my point. And wishing it otherwise does not change it-- you're either strong enough that treading on you isn't in anyone's best interests, or you get trampled. If you value your freedom, you have to play the game. You either have to be a player, or you have to find a master whose rules you find tolerable enough to protect you from the others.

    That's what the liberals wanted government to be, but they forgot that people don't want freedom; masters prefer power to freedom, and slaves prefer security. So the corporations became law unto themselves, and the government adjusted its focus to service them, and special interest politics became the rule of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    I realize not every human makes every single thing he needs, but then I don't feel that voluntary barter necessitates much of this control either.
    Voluntary barter doesn't necessitate this control... but it is one means by which people can gain such control. Most people do not require force to control them, because most people prefer to be controlled in the first place. It's only people for whom the system does not provide security, and people who desire power by any means, who must be controlled by force-- and until there's a critical mass of them to overthrow government, they are rightly regarded as criminals and kept from organizing and amassing power.

    That's why liberal revolutions fail. They're a natural magnet for people like that.

  5. #15
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    I believe there desire are in use, however there practice is disapearing due to extreamists on bothsides, an example of this would be the whole craigs list thing or our current tax system, or the 14th amendment or the change of control of the military from the states to the federal government or publically spanking your children. We have allowed the extreamists to ultimatly control how we live.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    It's only people for whom the system does not provide security, and people who desire power by any means, who must be controlled by force-- and until there's a critical mass of them to overthrow government, they are rightly regarded as criminals and kept from organizing and amassing power.

    That's why liberal revolutions fail. They're a natural magnet for people like that.
    How does the revolutionary war fit into your truly unique spin on history?

  7. #17
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    How does the revolutionary war fit into your truly unique spin on history?
    Around ten years before our "liberal" government used armed force to suppress a tax rebellion similar to the one the Revolutionaries fought, ninety years before they used conscription to abolish slavery, one hundred and seventy years before "premature anti-fascism" was used as an excuse to destroy peoples' lives and livelihoods, and two hundred and thirty years before this thread was started.

  8. #18
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Around ten years before our "liberal" government used armed force to suppress a tax rebellion similar to the one the Revolutionaries fought, ninety years before they used conscription to abolish slavery, one hundred and seventy years before "premature anti-fascism" was used as an excuse to destroy peoples' lives and livelihoods, and two hundred and thirty years before this thread was started.

    You consider the founding fathers "liberals"?

    That's...unique.

  9. #19
    Advisor kamino's Avatar
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    There isn't any, unless you have the power to take it. That's my point. And wishing it otherwise does not change it-- you're either strong enough that treading on you isn't in anyone's best interests, or you get trampled. If you value your freedom, you have to play the game. You either have to be a player, or you have to find a master whose rules you find tolerable enough to protect you from the others..
    i actually agree with this. Violance is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. The has indeed been a shift in force from the people and states to the federal government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    That's what the liberals wanted government to be, but they forgot that people don't want freedom; masters prefer power to freedom, and slaves prefer security. So the corporations became law unto themselves, and the government adjusted its focus to service them, and special interest politics became the rule of the day.
    .
    I disagree on the point that people dont want to be free, am I myself not a contradiction to this? Yes there are people that do not care, but there are plenty who do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    they are rightly regarded as criminals and kept from organizing and amassing power.
    Patriots will allways be called criminals, it takes courage to stand up for your beliefs. i am prepared to be declared a traitor or terrorist or criminal in there deffense. Even knowing that I would stand a very good chance of being arested/killed by my own brethren, I will continue to hold true to those beliefs.
    Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
    -Benjamin Franklin

  10. #20
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    Re: Do you Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamino View Post
    I believe there desire are in use, however there practice is disapearing due to extreamists on bothsides, an example of this would be the whole craigs list thing or our current tax system, or the 14th amendment or the change of control of the military from the states to the federal government or publically spanking your children. We have allowed the extreamists to ultimatly control how we live.
    That does not mean that the principles are no longer in practice. The text says:

    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    So as long as we allow it, the government is deriving its power from us. If we choose to unite and overthrow such an abusive government, then it shall be so. People will come to the point eventually and the extremists will be minimized.

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