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Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry


  • Total voters
    95
In 1948, during the Arab-Israeli War, the IDF discovered that male soldiers would drop out of the attack to help a female soldier, who was beyond help, quicker than they would do the same for a male soldier. This hendered the mission, it damaged morale and unit cohesion. It's the opinion of every real army in the world that co-ed combat units are a bad idea.

Even the Soviets didn't allow co-ed units during WW2 and they had 5 year olds digging tank ditches in front of Moscow, so they obviosuly didn't care about who got killed and who didn't. They had male and female units. One of the baddest tank units in the Red Army was an all female battalion. Probably the highest scoring squadron in the Soviet air force was an all female night fighter squadron that the Germans dubbed, "The Night Witches".

So, can we please stop using the, "egotistical white men", argument? Please??


Thanks so much for the links here. i read all three and really enjoyed reading all the infomation. It is always great when you can actually learn someting You would never had though of unless you were posting to a question.
 
If this ban has ever existed, it certainly doesn't exist anymore.
I find the idea of such a ban ridiculous, Israel has won that war against 7 different nations, so how exactly was using females in the field 'so dangerous'?
In fact, the females role in the battles was just as big as the males' role, and one could say that without the female combat soldiers, Israel might have not survived past its first day.

The ban DID exist. Your IDF friend can attest to that, I'm sure. Also, it still exists within frontline infantry units.
 
Two points to make.

1: Females cannot write their name in the snow with pee.

2: Males cannot give birth to a child.
 
Thanks so much for the links here. i read all three and really enjoyed reading all the infomation. It is always great when you can actually learn someting You would never had though of unless you were posting to a question.

You're most welcome. It's always a pleasure to dispell the revised history that alot of folks have been taught.
 
Yes, racial. You mentioned "white" men having antiquated opinions. Now stop dodging the question and answer.

Racial calling white men white is racial. I guess by your standards calling black men black is racial too.:confused:
 
Racial calling white men white is racial. I guess by your standards calling black men black is racial too.:confused:

If you had said just old men you would be able to use that in your defense. You purposely used the terms...

"Another point well made . Especially about the old white dudes." - smartaleck

The military of the US contains many Blacks, Hispanics etc as well as whites. So why were whites singled out?

Now in your defense I think the line Deejay said was similar to saying it is a "good old boy network" or something to that effect. It is bigoted, but not along racist lines.

Racist no, sexist is most likely.
 
It should be based on performance, not gender; If a woman could do the job better than a man then let's do it.
 
It should be based on performance, not gender; If a woman could do the job better than a man then let's do it.

That is only a part of the argument, but they can't. If this were the case females would be playing professional sports with men. They don't because they cannot compete physically.

Now exceptions in both cases to that rule exist, but they are so few and far in between it is not worth it.
 
If you had said just old men you would be able to use that in your defense. You purposely used the terms...

"Another point well made . Especially about the old white dudes." - smartaleck

The military of the US contains many Blacks, Hispanics etc as well as whites. So why were whites singled out?

Now in your defense I think the line Deejay said was similar to saying it is a "good old boy network" or something to that effect. It is bigoted, but not along racist lines.

Racist no, sexist is most likely.

If your going to quote me then quote me don't just take the parts of my statements to make a point. I said that I had to laugh because my husband was one of those old white dudes. When someone say's they are laughing that usually means something is funny not to be taken seriously.

If I'm no offend about my husband being called a old white dude why should you be? I know some people here don't have a sense of humor but really not to even know a joke when you see it?

Some people are only here to be serious and to prove they are right and everyone else is wrong and that's their thing and good for them. If you want to make a mountain out of a molehill more power to you.

I have stated over and over I'm not here to get in arguments with people who already have their minds made up . It's a wast of time to me. Thats my thing.

Hope you have a beautiful Friday. Stop and smell the flowers or in some cases pollution:lol: Have fun smile life is short.
 
I can't believe this thread is so popular.

Women in the infantry. Women on the "front lines" shouldn't be an argument since women have been on the front lines in Iraq since 2004. But actively carrying the 0300 MOS?

The American military is unlike every single military in the world. We constantly deploy to Cold Weather Training, Desert Training, Mountain Warfare Training, Jungle Training, etc. all over the world. A female in the American infantry doesn't mean the same thing as it does in other nations militaries. They would not be asked to hang out within their borders or stand a post in a shack within their borders or deploy occassionally when it's time to go to work. We have seen the pictures of packs, weapons systems, and battle loads but we don't stop to consider these pictures in mountainous or cold weather environments.

The vast majority of women could not stand the rigors that the vast majority of men can. Truth sucks, but there it is. For example: I just graduated a course for Gunnys. There were 99. Four of which were women. During the Confidence Course portion, all four women fell off the cable and into the water because they could not hold themselves up or pull their legs back onto the cable to shimmy or slide to the end. Of course, a few men fell too, but 100% of the women did. This is not a militay arena that should be "open" to women as it is for the men. That being said, maybe there should be a special indoc for women who actively wish to be a "Grunt." Only the few would meet the standard.

And by the way, the "old white man's club" argument merely seeks to deny the truths, which make some of us uncomfortable.
 
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I can't believe this thread is so popular.

Women in the infantry. Women on the "front lines" shouldn't be an argument since women have been on the front lines in Iraq since 2004. But actively carrying the 0300 MOS?

The American military is unlike every single military in the world. We constantly deploy to Cold Weather Training, Desert Training, Mountain Warfare Training, Jungle Training, etc. all over the world. A female in the American infantry doesn't mean the same thing as it does in other nations militaries. They would not be asked to hang out within their borders or stand a post in a shack within their borders or deploy occassionally when it's time to go to work. We have seen the pictures of packs, weapons systems, and battle loads but we don't stop to consider these pictures in mountainous or cold weather environments.

The vast majority of women could not stand the rigors that the vast majority of men can. Truth sucks, but there it is. For example: I just graduated a course for Gunnys. There were 99. Four of which were women. During the Confidence Course portion, all four women fell off the cable and into the water because they could not hold themselves up or pull their legs back onto the cable to shimmy or slide to the end. Of course, a few men fell too, but 100% of the women did. This is not a militay arena that should be "open" to women as it is for the men. That being said, maybe there should be a special indoc for women who actively wish to be a "Grunt." Only the few would meet the standard.

And by the way, the "old white man's club" argument merely seeks to deny the truths, which make some of us uncomfortable.

Thanks so much for the really informing us on this question of women in the infantry. It is great that someone with your actuall experience has taken the time to infom us on on this subject. We couldn't ask for anyone more able to teach us here on the subject and as far as I'm concerned we will not get any more informed than this. I'm really happy you posted to this question.

First of all I being a woman really did want to be informed on this subject It only takes a little resoning on anyones part to realize women are not physically fit to do the job of a grunt as some stated. The problem I had was their might me a few women that could do it and that they should be able to at least try . Just because I knew the majority of women couldn't do it didn't make it fair that the few women who could do it couldn't get a fair chance to prove it one way or the other.

I like you idea that maybe their could be a special indoc for women who met the standards to be grunts. I"m really happy that you would be willing to give them a chance. most women cannot do the physical parts of being a grunt because nature has made them smaller and with less muscle mass but their are a few women that does not apply but like you said probably only a few.

It is so nice to know that someone in charge of women and men in the military has such a open mind and a willingness to give women the same chance as a man. I know men can incourage women to do thier best and you are one of those people..

I'm glad that women get to prove themselves one way or the other. Doesn't matter to me as long as they get the chance. It's nice to know that our kids both male and female in the military have someone like you to lead them.

Thank you so much for all you have sacrificed to be in the military. I for one am a grateful citizen. Thanks
 
Racial calling white men white is racial. I guess by your standards calling black men black is racial too.:confused:
Are you really that stupid? My point is that there was no reason to bring up "white" men to start with in this discussion. There are lots of black men in the army too, so why would white men specifically have anything to do with women not being in combat?
 
I just graduated a course for Gunnys. There were 99. Four of which were women. During the Confidence Course portion, all four women fell off the cable and into the water because they could not hold themselves up or pull their legs back onto the cable to shimmy or slide to the end. Of course, a few men fell too, but 100% of the women did.

Hmm. 100% of the four. That would be... um, four of them, right?
And "a few" of the 95 men fell off too.
How many is "a few"? More than four?

If there had been 95 women and four men in the course, do you think it's possible that all four of the men could've fallen?
Do you think all 95 of the women would've?
 
Hmm. 100% of the four. That would be... um, four of them, right?
And "a few" of the 95 men fell off too.
How many is "a few"? More than four?

If there had been 95 women and four men in the course, do you think it's possible that all four of the men could've fallen?
Do you think all 95 of the women would've?
Liberals will reach as far as they have to try and rearrange reality to suit their beliefs. It's kind of sad actually.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.
 
The problem I had was their might me a few women that could do it and that they should be able to at least try . Just because I knew the majority of women couldn't do it didn't make it fair that the few women who could do it couldn't get a fair chance to prove it one way or the other.

Absolutely. Now, more often than not, the male ego is at stake and the "He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club" or argument of "tradition" is in effect. However, the truth is that some women are absolutely tough enough to be 0300s. They are few, but they do exist.

I believe the Marine Corps made a mistake in 1997(?) Before this, women went from Boot Camp to their MOS schools and followed up with basic infantry training once they got to the fleet. Then came a much needed breakthrough. The Commandant instructed Training Command (TECOM) to make room for the women. In 1997 (or '96), the first female Marines graduated Boot Camp and went to Marine Combat Training (MCT) and then went to MOS school just like the men. However, this is where they made a mistake. The women were thrown in with the men and the training quickly became less intensive to accomodate the abilities of the women. (18 mile hikes became 12 mile hikes, run paces slowed, etc.) By the end of the year, the women were seperated out into their own training commands along side the men, so that they could receive training in accordance to their abilities and the men could get back on track.

The dark side of this is that this is now used to "prove" that women can't do it. But this is a general mood. There are plenty who believe that if a woman truley wishes to live the life of the infantry, then she should be able to at least take some sort of indoc to prove capabilities. This, of course, couldn't be something where she could work towards taking, because there must be a natural baseline ability present. The reason is because the rigors of being in the infantry don't stop and there must be a base line of strength and endurance.

But there would be other considerations. Logistics would be tough. The infantry is not constructed for "coed." We watch Battlestar Galactica or Starship Troopers or Aliens or movies of the like where men and women dress together in locker rooms, but this isn't practical in our society.

I believe it is do-able. But ultimately, its our politicians that have to approve of something like this. Combat training is one thing. Sending women on patrols where enemy is imminent is another. I don't think America is ready to stomach dead American women on CNN.



Thank you so much for all you have sacrificed to be in the military. I for one am a grateful citizen. Thanks

Absolutely welcome.
 
Hmm. 100% of the four. That would be... um, four of them, right?
And "a few" of the 95 men fell off too.
How many is "a few"? More than four?

If there had been 95 women and four men in the course, do you think it's possible that all four of the men could've fallen?
Do you think all 95 of the women would've?


You are rationalizing a way to deny this.

The men were in their 40s and some fell because other students were shaking the cable and having fun. I was being generous by offering up that some men fell too. The truth is that if there were ten women, then ten would have fallen. They all fell at the half way point where you have to roll over and hang, flip over, and pull your boots up and over in order to go the rest of the way down. It's really tough even for some of the men who naturally possess the upper body strength. I have never seen a woman make it. Obviously some do, because they have to at least try it in Boot Camp. But this is merely an example of what women would have to do.
 
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Absolutely. Now, more often than not, the male ego is at stake and the "He-Man-Woman-Hater-Club" or argument of "tradition" is in effect. However, the truth is that some women are absolutely tough enough to be 0300s. They are few, but they do exist.

I believe the Marine Corps made a mistake in 1997(?) Before this, women went from Boot Camp to their MOS schools and followed up with basic infantry training once they got to the fleet. Then came a much needed breakthrough. The Commandant instructed Training Command (TECOM) to make room for the women. In 1997 (or '96), the first female Marines graduated Boot Camp and went to Marine Combat Training (MCT) and then went to MOS school just like the men. However, this is where they made a mistake. The women were thrown in with the men and the training quickly became less intensive to accomodate the abilities of the women. (18 mile hikes became 12 mile hikes, run paces slowed, etc.) By the end of the year, the women were seperated out into their own training commands along side the men, so that they could receive training in accordance to their abilities and the men could get back on track.

I went through MCT in the fall of 99. By that time, like you mentioned, there were no mixed platoons. Of course I was in San Diego, so i don't even know if females train MCT out there at all, cause I never saw one(I think they all might go east coast, like in boot). When I got to my MOS school, platoons were finally integrated and the intensity dropped off, because a large percentage of females could not keep up on runs. Our GySgt dropped every female in my platoon on a little 8 mile run he liked to do on Mondays for "boots" that hadn't picked up class yet, and got in trouble for it from above command. At least we didn't have to integrate PT with the sailors that we did classroom instruction with. Although a few sailors would join in our routine, voluntarily.
 
I went through MCT in the fall of 99. By that time, like you mentioned, there were no mixed platoons. Of course I was in San Diego, so i don't even know if females train MCT out there at all, cause I never saw one(I think they all might go east coast, like in boot).

East Coast training for women. Paris Island and Camp Geiger. Money was spent to accomodate the women on one side. It's easier and more cost effective. You know we don't have money.
 
You are rationalizing a way to deny this.

The men were in their 40s and some fell because other students were shaking the cable and having fun. I was being generous by offering up that some men fell too. The truth is that if there were ten women, then ten would have fallen. They all fell at the half way point where you have to roll over and hang, flip over, and pull your boots up and over in order to go the rest of the way down. It's really tough even for some of the men who naturally possess the upper body strength. I have never seen a woman make it. Obviously some do, because they have to at least try it in Boot Camp. But this is merely an example of what women would have to do.

If 95 white people and 4 black people took a written test, say a test to get into college, and all four black people plus "a few" of the white people failed it, would that prove that all black people are unsuited for higher education?
Would it be reasonable or fair to assume that "if ten black people had taken the test, all ten would've failed it"?
 
If your going to quote me then quote me don't just take the parts of my statements to make a point. I said that I had to laugh because my husband was one of those old white dudes. When someone say's they are laughing that usually means something is funny not to be taken seriously.

I did not take it seriously? I said it could be seen as sexist and not racist.

Stop jumping to conclusions and making asinine assumptions.

If I'm no offend about my husband being called a old white dude why should you be? I know some people here don't have a sense of humor but really not to even know a joke when you see it?

Please point out where I said I was offended or even implied it?

Some people are only here to be serious and to prove they are right and everyone else is wrong and that's their thing and good for them. If you want to make a mountain out of a molehill more power to you.

Ummm.. It is an Internet discussion and debate forum?

I have stated over and over I'm not here to get in arguments with people who already have their minds made up . It's a wast of time to me. Thats my thing.

Then don't, and start actually reading what those debating you are saying.

Hope you have a beautiful Friday. Stop and smell the flowers or in some cases pollution:lol: Have fun smile life is short.

Always do, thanks. :)
 
If 95 white people and 4 black people took a written test, say a test to get into college, and all four black people plus "a few" of the white people failed it, would that prove that all black people are unsuited for higher education?
Would it be reasonable or fair to assume that "if ten black people had taken the test, all ten would've failed it"?

Your replacing of the gender difference, with racial difference is disingenuos in this scenario. It is likely that a higher percentage of females would fail the physical demands of the rope crawl, if the numbers were even because men enjoy a physical advantage over women in the physical requirements of this particular obstacle. Just like women would more than likely do less pull-ups on average as males, run slower times than males, or do anything requiring strength and endurance. Thats not to say there aren't women that cannot perform as well as other men, but when you look at what is required in terms physicality, men on average enjoy a natural advantage over women. There's no way to be obtuse with numbers to try and change that fact.
 
Liberalism is a mental disorder.

My wife is liberal and she is wonderful.

It is not a mental disorder. I could point to quit a few conservatives that would qualify though. :roll:
 
My wife is liberal and she is wonderful.

It is not a mental disorder. I could point to quit a few conservatives that would qualify though. :roll:
It's excusable for your wife to be a liberal. She's a woman. For a grown man to be a liberal, however, is absolutely pathetic. I can understand if you're some teenage pothead with no concept of how the world works, but when you grow up and put man pants on its time to earn your own money and tell the government that you can take care of yourself.
 
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