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Should females be allowed to specialize as infantry in the military?

Should women be allowed to specialize as infantry

  • Yes, and they should be integrated with the males

    Votes: 44 46.3%

  • Yes, but keep their units seperate from male units

    Votes: 11 11.6%

  • No, but women should be given some basic infantry skills beyond basic training

    Votes: 25 26.3%

  • No, women should never serve in a role where they may encounter combat

    Votes: 6 6.3%

  • Other....

    Votes: 9 9.5%
  • Total voters
    95
talloulou said:
Well it's not altogether irrational when most men I know are stronger than most women I know. If you talk about fine tuned physiques this becomes even more obvious. Clearly there are very fit women who can take down men who aren't optimally fit or men who are generally smaller. But in most cases you put a fit man up against a fit woman in hand to hand combat and the man is gonna trounce her. How am I supposed to pretend to not know this?
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Honestly, the odds of engaging in hand-to-hand combat in modern warfare is quite remote. I never once saw this oddity happen in two tours.
 
WI Crippler said:
Did their sexual relationship impact our squadrons ability to perform its mission? No. Did their sexual relationship become a distraction to the unit, after it was made aware to the chain of command? Yes.
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Do other sorts of interpersonal conflicts impact your squadron's ability to perform its mission and become a distraction to the unit? If so, then you are drawing an unfair standard for male/female relationships.

I'm sure that there have never been sexual conflicts involving the guys in your unit messing around with each other's wives, right? (This happened in the police department I worked for).
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
Do other sorts of interpersonal conflicts impact your squadron's ability to perform its mission and become a distraction to the unit? If so, then you are drawing an unfair standard for male/female relationships.
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Yes they do. We had to send one guy back, because him and another guy got into a fight and he ended up with a severely broken ankle. That affected the manpower of that particular unit, and while they still accomplished the mission, it took a perfectly good guy out of the fight.
 
Tashah said:
Honestly, the odds of engaging in hand-to-hand combat in modern warfare is quite remote. I never once saw this oddity happen in two tours.
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But strength becomes a factor if you are going to be on combat ready ground missions where you are expected to carry heavy equipment in relentless environments.

Are you saying that strength isn't a factor? And if it is a factor and men are notably stronger after finishing their training then should that be ignored? Should we put a woman on a mission if she's less strong then the men in the group and thus has the potential to becomes a liability? And this furthers the potential to encourage chivalrous acts with men arguing over whose job it is to look out for her? How can we justify that? Add to that the problem that she may also be pregnant and you're essentially sending a woman and child to battle.
 
Redress said:
Do you know many women in the military? Most are not only not bothered by cursing, but could probably make you blush with what comes out of their mouths.
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The experience I and other infantrymen have had when encountering females on post or some other place and cursing is that they will run and tell their NCO that you cursed them out even though you said "hey soldier get off your ass and do some work" sometime later you'll overhear them talking with their female friends or on the phone cursing up a storm.
 
WI Crippler said:
Yes they do. We had to send one guy back, because him and another guy got into a fight and he ended up with a severely broken ankle. That affected the manpower of that particular unit, and while they still accomplished the mission, it took a perfectly good guy out of the fight.
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Then I don't see a difference. When it is all guys serving, there is STILL a possibility for interpersonal conflict between guys. And, drama involving local women.

See, I tend to see our military service as PROFESSIONALS. Just like men seem to manage to do their jobs in the states with female co-workers (including cops and firefighters and paramedics, and others in related emergency/dangerous fields). I think y'all are AT LEAST as professional as the civilians are. And, when people are out of line, there are rules to cover it.
 
WI Crippler said:
I guess I will share this somewhat personal experience to maybe provide some insight for both sides of the argument.
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Relationships happen everywhere and in every conceivable context and in virtually every conceivable profession.

As I said up yonder, you may as well ban women from the police beat. I think it's a cop out myself. (pun intended)
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Who's pretending? Women already serve in high-stress, high-danger jobs, and do so with commendable success. Not every woman is going to WANT to serve in a combat role, but why shouldn't women be allowed to TRY OUT to do so?

PC has nothing to do with this. I don't understand why some women are so averse to allowing other women to live life on their own terms.
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Because a ground combat mission is very much life or death. If a women is weaker than every man in her unit then wouldn't the unit be served better by a man?
 
talloulou said:
But strength becomes a factor if you are going to be on combat ready ground missions where you are expected to carry heavy equipment in relentless environments.
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Then set fitness standards that are commensurate with the physical demands of the job, not based on possession of a penis.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't require a penis to carry 50 lbs. of gear. If a woman can do the job--and wants to--then let her.
 
jamesrage said:
The experience I and other infantrymen have had when encountering females on post or some other place and cursing is that they will run and tell their NCO that you cursed them out even though you said "hey soldier get off your ass and do some work" sometime later you'll overhear them talking with their female friends or on the phone cursing up a storm.
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When I went to PMI school(Primary Marksmanship Instructor), we were told that when trying to adjust a female recruit, one we were not allowed to touch them, and two, if we wanted them to adjust their legs in the prone position, we could not say something like "Recruit, you need to spread your legs further apart" We had to say something like, "Recruit, you need to place your left and right feet at a further distance from each other".

We were not told any such standards regarding the interaction with male recruits.
 
Tashah said:
Relationships happen everywhere and in every conceivable context and in virtually every conceivable profession.

As I said up yonder, you may as well ban women from the police beat. I think it's a cop out myself. (pun intended)
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It's not a cop out. It's a problem. An issue. And a distraction. How much of a distraction do you think it would be on the battlefield if a woman and her boyfriend in the same unit were worrying over whether or not she was carrying his baby while they marched off to battle. It's not as if once pregnant you are magically morphed home. It's a whole process of finding out for sure and then getting out to go home.
 
Tashah said:
Relationships happen everywhere and in every conceivable context and in virtually every conceivable profession.

As I said up yonder, you may as well ban women from the police beat. I think it's a cop out myself. (pun intended)
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Between you and Catz part Duex, I am getting distracted by all the legs in this thread. :2razz:
 
talloulou said:
Because a ground combat mission is very much life or death. If a women is weaker than every man in her unit then wouldn't the unit be served better by a man?
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Your assumption is that women are inherently less physically suited to combat conditions than men. But combat involves more than carrying gear, and those kinds of responsibilities are assigned to those who are best suited for it. Even among males, guys can vary greatly in how much gear they can carry.

Beyond that, the NAVY Seals routinely recruit men of small physical stature, which suggests that women, with their smaller, more dexterous hands which leads to greater skilll in weapons firing, could fill these jobs.

Again, it's only for women who WANT to do the job. And the vast majority DON'T. But, women, for instance, could serve as snipers, and do the job well. The Russian army used women as snipers in WWII.

Here's a corresponding situation - women in SWAT:

L.A. SWAT Unit on Verge of Accepting First Woman : NPR

Women In SWAT, What Does It Take? - cbs13.com
 
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talloulou said:
Because a ground combat mission is very much life or death. If a women is weaker than every man in her unit then wouldn't the unit be served better by a man?
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Trust me, sweetheart, working as a cop in any major metropolitan area is JUST as life and death, and female police officers find a way to make it work every single day of the year.

Thought I'd share this pic, it's very cute.

Female Sniper Whacks An Insurgant...
 
WI Crippler said:
When I went to PMI school(Primary Marksmanship Instructor), we were told that when trying to adjust a female recruit, one we were not allowed to touch them, and two, if we wanted them to adjust their legs in the prone position, we could not say something like "Recruit, you need to spread your legs further apart" We had to say something like, "Recruit, you need to place your left and right feet at a further distance from each other".

We were not told any such standards regarding the interaction with male recruits.
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In the future, you'll be used to it. I had to learn to search women for weapons (and the guys I worked with regularly used me in that capacity because it made everyone's life easier). I learned to do it, even though it was weird to swipe under another woman's breasts and between them.

Just part of the job...
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Trust me, sweetheart, working as a cop in any major metropolitan area is JUST as life and death, and female police officers find a way to make it work every single day of the year.

Thought I'd share this pic, it's very cute.

Female Sniper Whacks An Insurgant...
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uhm, about 150 officers are killed a year nationwide. not the same as combat by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Trust me, sweetheart, working as a cop in any major metropolitan area is JUST as life and death, and female police officers find a way to make it work every single day of the year.

Thought I'd share this pic, it's very cute.

Female Sniper Whacks An Insurgant...
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Sweetheart? Really?

Anywayz no. I completely reject the premise that being a cop is akin to going into battle. Being a cop is dangerous, sure. But barring any major trauma you go home at the end of the work day.
 
WI Crippler said:
When I went to PMI school(Primary Marksmanship Instructor), we were told that when trying to adjust a female recruit, one we were not allowed to touch them, and two, if we wanted them to adjust their legs in the prone position, we could not say something like "Recruit, you need to spread your legs further apart" We had to say something like, "Recruit, you need to place your left and right feet at a further distance from each other".

We were not told any such standards regarding the interaction with male recruits.
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Best post in the thread so far. No so much for content, but for humor. I found the story hilarious.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
uhm, about 150 officers are killed a year nationwide. not the same as combat by any stretch of the imagination.
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Wrong. That's out of several hundred thousand cops who serve, some of them in podunk little two-horse communities. The vast majority of cops work in small towns and rural communities. But, if you look at a per capita basis of injury ONLY in those areas with significant crime problems (and thus, equivalent to combat), the job is just as dangerous as combat.

I can tell neither of you knows what you're talking about on this particular subject. YOu're just letting your prejudices do the talking.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
In the future, you'll be used to it. I had to learn to search women for weapons (and the guys I worked with regularly used me in that capacity because it made everyone's life easier). I learned to do it, even though it was weird to swipe under another woman's breasts and between them.

Just part of the job...
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Well I am not likely to be teaching anybody how to shoot in the future. Although I will have to grope around on patients when I get my physical therapy degree.
 
talloulou said:
I completely reject the premise that being a cop is akin to going into battle. Being a cop is dangerous, sure. But barring any major trauma you go home at the end of the work day.
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I said being a cop in an urban area. I'm thinking Los Angeles, Chicago, Miami, Houston, where the conditions in some areas are akin to combat conditions, and police are routinely fired on during shifts.
 
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WI Crippler said:
Well I am not likely to be teaching anybody how to shoot in the future. Although I will have to grope around on patients when I get my physical therapy degree.
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That should be fun for you, except you'll probably be groping a lot of 80-somethings, and wishing for hot runners with recurrent knee injuries.

:2razz:
 
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